Soviet fighters and 4.12

[gaunt1]

Hi guys!

We've seen lots of FM changes on allied & axis planes, I think it would be good idea to revise the soviet fighters too. Main problem is that they are significantly (and unrealistically) overpowered compared to axis and even allied ones. In RL, soviet planes, like Yaks, MiGs, Lavochkins (except LaGG-3) were excellent, it cannot be denied. But not as excellent as ingame.
I really like flying them, but over time, it gets boring. Shooting down Luftwaffe fighters is too easy, even in the LaGG-3, which was one of the worst planes of WW2 in RL.

So, here are my suggestions:

Yak-1, -7, VK105 powered -9 variants:
- their FM is quite good, only their acceleration and climb rate should be reduced slightly (a bit more on Yak-9T and K)

Yak-9 and Yak-3 with VK107:
- Yak 3 VK107 is a bit too fast
- According to IL-2 compare, Yak-9U is also too fast. Top speed should be 672km/h
- Extreme acceleration
- the main problem is the engine. VK-107 was powerful, but very unreliable, had extremely low service life and was prone to overheat. The lubrication system had 4 oil pumps, but it was very poorly designed, and it was inadequate, especially at higher rpm. This frequently led to engine seizures. The engine had other serious defects, like the poor quality bearings, seals (improved after WW2, but the engine remained very unreliable), the defective water pump, etc. So, engine should overheat more often and engine damage should occur quickly after overheating.

LaGG-3:
-Series 4: OK, except that it should be prone to stall with flaps raised.
-Series 29: the same as S4 + Way too much improvement on turn rate and rate of climb.
-Series 35: Slats improved turn rate, but not so much as ingame. Rate of climb is also too much.
-IT: the same as S4 + A bit too much improvement on turn rate and rate of climb.
-Series 66: As with S35, + too fast (it should be 575-580km/h at altitude), and accelerates too well. This plane is almost as good as a Yak-1B, which is BS to be honest. LaGGs were improved over time, but improvement was far less than in IL-2, and they remained significantly inferior.

La-5 series:
This plane was excellent, pilots considered it to be equal to german planes. But in IL-2 its far-far superior. I included a testing report (by Hans-Werner Lerche) of a captured 1944 model La-5FN, which tells us much. Note: There are lots of debates over this test, especially about the correct model of the aircraft. But in my opinion, this is definitely a late La-5FN, because only this version used the ASh-82FNV (1850hp), described in the report. Early La-5FN used the ASh-82FN (1630hp). The speed data at higher altitudes seems to be incorrect. However, this was probably due to supercharger problems, the pilot didnt or couldnt switch to second gear above 3000m.

Plus, there are problems with the engine power ingame. The problems start with La-5F. It had an 1570hp ASh-82F engine, which wasnt more powerful than the ASh-82 (M82) in a La-5, so the performance shouldnt be that better as ingame. The La-5FN we have ingame should be renamed to La-5FN late. As I mentioned earlier, early La-5FN (1943 model) had an 1630hp ASh-82FN engine, so performance should be only a bit more than the F model. In 1943, they didnt have the 1850hp ASh-82FNV.

La-7:
Ok, although accelerates like a rocket, and a bit too fast, top speed should be 661km/h at altitude. This was the only soviet plane that was clearly superior to any german fighter.

[jermin]

Since they haven't been touched in the past decade, I doubt we will ever see them rectified in the future.

Personally, I don't want them to be changed. It's not because I think they are correctly modeled (they never been), but rather if they get rectified, the last active online IL2 community in the world - the Russian one - will be gone. Then I'll get nowhere to fly.

[Snake]

For sure, you're a German plane flyer and I like, also, to fly most of the time German planes. My suggestion: if you want to knock down soviet plane flyers try to learn some team tactics to implement in a team, find a squadron or a mate and fight together with discipline and a cool mind and you'll find success most of the time.

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by jermin

It's not because I think they are correctly modeled (they never been), but rather if they get rectified, the last active online IL2 community in the world - the Russian one - will be gone.

Interesting. I mainly fly russian planes, but I got bored of them, because everything is too easy. My favourite fighter is the La-5, but its like cheating. And cheating is boring. The germans cant turn, cant climb and cant run. I'd like to "feel" how a real russian fighter fly. I'd like to have more challenge too. OK, you can say that then I should fly german planes. True they are challenging, but I simply dont like the 109 and the 190 at all.

[Jure_502]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Interesting. I mainly fly russian planes, but I got bored of them, because everything is too easy. My favourite fighter is the La-5, but its like cheating. And cheating is boring. The germans cant turn, cant climb and cant run. I'd like to "feel" how a real russian fighter fly. I'd like to have more challenge too. OK, you can say that then I should fly german planes. True they are challenging, but I simply dont like the 109 and the 190 at all.

+1, I never could fly La-5 and 7 beacuse they felt so easy to fly...too easy. AFAIK russian pilot flying La-5 and others had to use 6 different handles in cockpit to get fighter on full throttle (emergency boost included).

[gaunt1]

Not just the 6 levers. Ingame, the La-5 can outturn any german, allied, and even soviet plane, including the Yak-3! (OK, except the La-7) In RL, the turn performance of the La-5FN was comparable or slightly worse than a 109. Climb rate and acceleration is again exaggerated. The german test report describe these very well. But still, it was an excellent plane.

[omi89]

It would be hard to simulate real historiacal performance..I read interview with WW2 YAK Soviet pilot and he said he never changed prop pitch settings..only throttle to adjust for proper RPM. Im sure this was not SOP in WS ,but that is how many pilots did it. OFC this affected performance, and altough Soviet aircraft were one of the best they often couldnt cope with contempoary German fighters.

[Woke Up Dead]

For what it's worth, flying the red side online against good blue pilots, I often get the opposite impression to gaunt1.

In 1941, nothing the Soviets have can match the 109-F4, except maybe the MiG 3ud and only way, way up high. The F4 is noticeably faster and better climbing than all Soviet planes, and its slightly inferior turn rate is more than compensated by its great low-speed stability, allowing its pilots to pull harder without fear of stalling.

In 1942, nothing the Soviets have can match the 109-G2, maybe only the La5F, and only way, way down low. Once again, the German machine outruns and out-climbs everything, and its turn rate is more than good enough to compete.

In 1943 things are fairly even if you avoid fighting the La 5FN below 2-3000m, by 1944 the Soviets have some nice planes that can out-turn all and catch most German fighters. I'd say overall things are balanced and fine; from a gamer's point of view it's good to sometimes have the better machine, and sometimes be the underdog.

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by Woke Up Dead

For what it's worth, flying the red side online against good blue pilots, I often get the opposite impression to gaunt1.

In 1941, nothing the Soviets have can match the 109-F4, except maybe the MiG 3ud and only way, way up high. The F4 is noticeably faster and better climbing than all Soviet planes, and it's slightly inferior turn rate is more than compensated by its great low-speed stability, allowing its pilots to pull harder without fear of stalling.

In 1942, nothings the Soviets have can match the 109-G2, maybe only the La5F, and only way, way down low. Once again, the German machine outruns and out-climbs everything, and its turn rate is more than good enough to compete.

In 1943 things are fairly even if you avoid fighting the La 5FN below 2-3000m, by 1944 the Soviets have some nice planes that can out-turn all and catch most German fighters. I'd say overall things are balanced and fine; from a gamer's point of view it's good to sometimes have the better machine, and sometimes be the underdog.

+1

I tend to agree with this.

[Z1024]

Originally Posted by Woke Up Dead

For what it's worth, flying the red side online against good blue pilots, I often get the opposite impression to gaunt1.

In 1941, nothing the Soviets have can match the 109-F4, except maybe the MiG 3ud and only way, way up high. The F4 is noticeably faster and better climbing than all Soviet planes, and its slightly inferior turn rate is more than compensated by its great low-speed stability, allowing its pilots to pull harder without fear of stalling.

In 1942, nothing the Soviets have can match the 109-G2, maybe only the La5F, and only way, way down low. Once again, the German machine outruns and out-climbs everything, and its turn rate is more than good enough to compete.

In 1943 things are fairly even if you avoid fighting the La 5FN below 2-3000m, by 1944 the Soviets have some nice planes that can out-turn all and catch most German fighters. I'd say overall things are balanced and fine; from a gamer's point of view it's good to sometimes have the better machine, and sometimes be the underdog.

First of all as far as I understand Il2 is not so much about gameplay balance, it aspires to be sufficiently accurate.

P39 is more than adequate vs 109s in 41-42. P39D is faster than 109G2 below 4500m and turns better. It is also competitive vs FW190A4FR.
I know it is not soviet made, but it was available to VVS during that period in significant numbers and most servers add it to the planeset. La5F is faster below 2k and a better turner as well.

In 1943 La5FN totally dominates both Bf106G2-G6 (G2 is way better than G6) and FW190A5-A6 in every respect below 3k and is only marginally weaker above in top speed department.

In 1944 La7 is better in all respects than any 109 or 190 below 2-3k. above that altitude only 109K4 is faster, but at high speeds its turning performance is terrible so you can't really use your E advantage effectively vs competent La7s pilots below.
If any 1944 109 or 190 is attacked by a co-E or higher E La7 - @3-4k and below - there is nothing he can do - can't outrun, can't out-turn can't out-climb. Best bet is a head-on (if possible). Above that altitude - only k4 has a chance (outrun/outclimb). La7 is way better than A9 in every respect (except 4 roll rate and weapons) across all altitudes.

In 1945 the situation is the same, except for D9 which is somewhat faster between 2500 and 7k, but above 8k La7 is taking the lead again, which is quite funny, given the fact D9 was a med-high altitude interceptor,was more or less competitive even vs P51s and P47s at 7-9k and La7's performance suffered above 6k. The other important thing to consider is that D9 now overheats faster than La7 (and takes a long time to cool down) - so you won't be able to maintain that high speed for long. Not sure about acceleration - I made few tests at sea level and La7 accelerates to 600km/h pretty quickly and in D9Late I was able to reach only 570 and got an overheat pretty quickly.

This does not include jets of course, because they are usually not available online. But even if they were - me262's mk108s are not very good vs fighters at the me262 speeds. They are however virtually invulnerable once they gain speed and altitude.

To sum up - in 1941-42 P39 is a good match vs 109s and 190s, 1943+ - La5/La7 totally dominate 109/190s.
So I can't say it is fair or even accurate. La7 supposed to be only marginally faster than A8/A9 at low altitude and slower than D9+MW50 (which is BTW late 1944, not 1945).