Friday 2010-06-25 Dev. update and Discussion Thread

[philip.ed]

It'd be helpful if we knew how much memory the video card had (or is it still too speculative as Luthier said?)

[zapatista]

Hi Oleg,

thx for the recent update, the hurricanes and sim lighting effects look very good !

can you plz give some insight in the dynamic campaign engine the way it is being finalized right now ?

1) can a campaign server run 24/7 for several months with people joining for a few hrs to fly missions and then rejoining a week or 2 later again and see how the campaign itself has progressed with other gamers having played on it ?

2) will the choice of missions have a similar interface to falcon-4 where you see a listed of "tasked missions" and you can choose a specific one you like (combat patrol, bomber escort, enemy fighter/bomber intercept, "free flight" from any airfield, etc..).

3) will blowing up bridges and railways reduce the supplies reaching the enemy front lines and reduce their fighting ability (including supplies to airfields, preventing enemy planes from refueling and rearming there)

4) can we later on also expect to fly cargo planes in BoB ? so that airfields or troops that are low on supplies can be resupplied by players ? (might not be immediatly important for BoB, but will be for Stalingrad, italy, and north africa campaigns)

5) you mentioned before your dynamic campaign server will have a semi-rigid progress sequence where the eventual outcome of the BoB is predetermined for the english side to "win" (or germans failing would be more accurate), will this campaign server program be open to 3e party editing so we can make servers with an uncertain outcome ? (this would not be for every player action to have a different battle outcome, but big issues like "keeping the english airfield south of london closed due to sustained heavy attack for 2 months", or "enemy looses 80% of their combat aircraft and resupply can not be done fast enough with new pilots and aircraft" etc, and another 5 or 6 pivotal events like that could be listed/triggered like that which alter the outcome of the BoB)

thanks for all your effort and perseverance with this project, cant wait to start flying in the new scenery and environment

[philip.ed]

Regarding a dynamic campaign, I have yet to play a better one that the one in BoB-WoV. In my opinion, that is the bechmark to aim for.

[csThor]

Campaign-wise BoB and BoB2 were strategy games. The campaign in said game(s) was woefully misplaced in a flight sim as for a flight sim the realistic environment is limited to the tactical aspect: flying and maybe commanding a unit (up to Geschwader size). Decisions as you have to make in BoB/BoB2 belong to the ranks of the Generals and those don't fly on a regular basis or at all.

The campaign coming closest to perfection in the sense of creating immersion was the ancient Red Baron 2 campaign. While not really dynamic it was dynamic where it counted: you always believed you were in a living and breathing world and not an isolated little aircraft in a big empty room nor were you forced to make decisions which have nothing to do with what a flight sim should simulate.

@ zapatista: Online mission selection is a good idea but offline it should be an option (or better yet: not even present). In Falcon you could jump in between units and roles, jump to the cockpit of an already airborne flight and in my eyes that's utterly destructive for any kind of immersion. To me the campaign of SoW has to be historical first and foremost which means you have one pilot belonging to one unit (unless transfered) who get's orders and doesn't make them.

[furbs]

Has anyone heard if we will get a option for the level of haze in SOW?...would be good if we could have a choice of height and level for haze in the QMB and FMB.
Alot of the BOB books ive read talk about sometimes the haze being quite bad...esp near london...Oleg?

[philip.ed]

Originally Posted by csThor

Campaign-wise BoB and BoB2 were strategy games. The campaign in said game(s) was woefully misplaced in a flight sim as for a flight sim the realistic environment is limited to the tactical aspect: flying and maybe commanding a unit (up to Geschwader size). Decisions as you have to make in BoB/BoB2 belong to the ranks of the Generals and those don't fly on a regular basis or at all.

The campaign coming closest to perfection in the sense of creating immersion was the ancient Red Baron 2 campaign. While not really dynamic it was dynamic where it counted: you always believed you were in a living and breathing world and not an isolated little aircraft in a big empty room nor were you forced to make decisions which have nothing to do with what a flight sim should simulate.

@ zapatista: Online mission selection is a good idea but offline it should be an option (or better yet: not even present). In Falcon you could jump in between units and roles, jump to the cockpit of an already airborne flight and in my eyes that's utterly destructive for any kind of immersion. To me the campaign of SoW has to be historical first and foremost which means you have one pilot belonging to one unit (unless transfered) who get's orders and doesn't make them.

You are wrong in some respects. You can be the commander in BoB2, but you have the option to change and just be a pilot; in which case the campaign is just like Red-Baron-2. As a pilot, you just concern on your own squadron and the campaign plays out, quite randomly, around you. Of course the campaign starts off in a similar way, but every move affects the outcome.

[zapatista]

re: gamer choice of missions in dynamic campaign engine

@csThor

To me the campaign of SoW has to be historical first and foremost which means you have one pilot belonging to one unit (unless transfered) who get's orders and doesn't make them.

that is a very very limited perspective of a campaign "engine" (its more a linear set of missions then), and i am fairly confident oleg has a much broader view on this (as he should, since most potential customers want bigger/more options of what a ww-1 combat sim should be)

nothing wrong with as part of the options having what you ask for (since some other die hard realists will want this to, sticking to one squadron and try and keep their pilot alive as long as possible), and i suspect it is included, but it would be a total waste of 80% of what will make BoB such a revolutionary sim environment if they limit it to that so narrowly.

i dont remember the details of the red baron campaigns, but personally i am hoping fror a combination of the falcon4 type server and "mig alley" (the old rowan sim from 10 yrs ago). this means you can select a number of missions from a "task board" once you join a server, like
- fighter combat patrol in a sector
- fighter intercept mission to engage enemy bombers/fighters in grid XYZ
- free flight from any airbase in any sector, where you can only choose a specific aircraft from what is available at that base
- downed pilot resque at sea (hopefully, but oleg says not immediately included probably)
- special mission to drop air supplies to french resistance, or land in france and pick up downed pilot saved by the resistance
- patrol over channel with anti shipping munitions to hunt for enemy shipping
- intercept stuka raid heading for radar installations
- etc

it wouldnt be to complex for programmers to have a "virtual scenario" of the 4 months of the whole BoB, and have several 100 events that unfold in a historical manner (as i believe oleg has already indicated iirc they are working with). so when you join a dynamic campaign server (or run it on your own pc in solo), then this scenario is unfolding already with multiple events in progress. the "task board" can then offer you to participate in a number of those events, each being in their own stage of unfolding, which makes it almost an obligation you end up "in the cockpit in flight" for some of those (not trying to be cynical, but in your "1 pilot identity in one squadron" scenario you might actually then sit at an airfield without being tasked for many days or hrs, which isnt realistic either)

and with the earlier suggestion i made for a more falcon-4 type mission selection, because the dynamic campaign engine keeps progressing in time, any week you join to select one of those missions, they will be in a very different environment with very different events encountered.

the good thing about the mig alley campaign engine is that you could significantly block enemy supply lines by targeting bridges and railways etc, or roads with truck convoys. this then affected the enemy ability to fight on the ground and their fighting strength, resulting in the frontline moving one way or the other. you could also close down enemy airfields and force them to relocate their aircraft to rear airfields (lengthening their flight time to the front line or interception of your flights, and hence affecting the campaign outcome etc)

i dont either see anything wrong with including some of the falcon-4 type "jump into a flight" type action in the options when you select a flight, since not everybody has always 4 hrs available to make a "pure" mission taking of from a french airbase, climbing to altitude, circle for bomber formation to arrive at meeting point, escort bombers for 30 min over channel, and then have 5 min of fun fighting it out with brittish fighters (where you either get near instantly killed or have to immediately fly back for 30 min return trip on low fuel).

the good thing about the Falcon-4 dynamic campaign server is that you could choose the type of mission you liked THAT DAY for that gaming session. most people that buy il2/BoB dont want to (and shouldnt be forced to) just stick to one type of "combat flight sim" scenario where it is always the same type of action (eg as a fighter go shoot at some other fighters and do a dogfight)

remember, most people reading this current board are older il2 users of the more fanatical type, who are more hardcore in what they want. trying to force ALL BoB-il2 users into that rigid format of following 1 pilot career will/would seriously limit sales. there is for example a significant number of ex ms-fs-X users who would enjoy flying some VFR missions in high quality plane models with good scenery and might want to simply fly supply missions (knowing that providing those supplies to a specific location makes a difference in the outcome of the unfolding game scenario) and not just "shoot em up" type missions. and many of us "combat types" might just have 1 or 2 hrs a few times per week to do some virtual flying and would prefer to choose the action/mission type we most enjoy for that day. being forced to ALWAYS follow a single "Fritz career" from flight 1 to 22 where he meets his death would be rather boring imo.

[philip.ed]

I don't really see how a dynamic campaign will work if the result is fixed? I'll feel like I have nothing to play for really because I know that my side will win (or lose).

[csThor]

@ zapatista

that is a very very limited perspective of a campaign "engine" (its more a linear set of missions then), and i am fairly confident oleg has a much broader view on this (as he should, since most potential customers want bigger/more options of what a ww-1 combat sim should be)

Is it? In my opinion a campaign should first and foremost try to depict an approximation of what real pilots back then went through every day. This means it has to model their normal days, it has to model the fact that they were members of armed forces with a hierarchical system of responsibilities and decision making layers, were assigned to a certain unit (with the possibility of being transfered) ... Essentially all the little pilots were simply small wheels within a much much larger engine and didn't have an influence on decisions such as strategic goals, political considerations or technological developments. They were on the sharp end of a very long spear ... and this is what a campaigns should try to simulate.

nothing wrong with as part of the options having what you ask for (since some other die hard realists will want this to, sticking to one squadron and try and keep their pilot alive as long as possible), and i suspect it is included, but it would be a total waste of 80% of what will make BoB such a revolutionary sim environment if they limit it to that so narrowly.

i dont remember the details of the red baron campaigns, but personally i am hoping fror a combination of the falcon-2 type server and "mig alley" (the old rowan sim from 10 yrs ago). this means you can select a number of missions from a "task board" once you join a server, like
- fighter combat patrol in a sector
- fighter intercept mission to engage enemy bombers/fighters in grid XYZ
- free flight from any airbase in any sector, where you can only choose a specific aircraft from what is available at that base
- downed pilot resque at sea (hopefully, but oleg says not immediately included probably)
- special mission to drop air supplies to french resistance, or land in france and pick up downed pilot saved by the resistance
- patrol over channel with anti shipping munitions to hunt for enemy shipping
- intercept stuka raid heading for radar installations
- etc

and because the dynamic campaign engine keeps progressing in time, any week you join to select one of those missions, they will be in a very different environment with very different events encountered.

the good thing about the mig alley campaign engine is that you could significantly block enemy supply lines by targeting bridges and railways etc, or roads with truck convoys. this then affected the enemy ability to fight on the ground and their fighting strength, resulting in the frontline moving one way or the other. you could also close down enemy airfields and force them to relocate their aircraft to rear airfields (lengthening their flight time to the front line or interception of your flights, and hence affecting the campaign outcome etc)

i dont either see anything wrong with including some of the falcon-4 type "jump into a flight" type action in the options when you select a flight, since not everybody has always 4 hrs available to make a "pure" mission taking of from a french airbase, climbing to altitude, circle for bomber formation to arrive at meeting point, escort bombers for 30 min over channel, and then have 5 min of fun fighting it out with brittish fighters (where you either get near instantly killed or have to immediately fly back for 30 min return trip on low fuel).

the good thing about the Falcon-4 dynamic campaign server is that you could choose the type of mission you liked THAT DAY for that gaming session. most people that buy il2/BoB dont want to (and shouldnt be forced to) just stick to one type of "combat flight sim" scenario where it is always the same type of action (eg as a fighter go shoot at some other fighters and do a dogfight)

remember, most people reading this current board are older il2 users of the more fanatical type, who are more hardcore in what they want. trying to force ALL BoB-il2 users into that rigid format will seriously limit sales. there is for a significant number of ms-fs-X users who might want to fly supply missions and not "shoot em up" type missions, and many of us might just have 1 or 2 hrs a couple of times per week to do some virtual flying and would prefer to choose the action/mission type we most enjoy for that day. being forced to ALWAYS follow a single "Fritz career" from flight 1 to 22 where he meets his death would be rather boring imo.

The mistake you make is that you throw offline and online campaigns into one pot. Your list is comprehensible and sensible for online campaigns, but as I outlined offline campaigns should try to achieve a much different goal. Online you may go for a different outcome if you want to because the campaign is already non-historical per default. Online campaigns do not necessarily depend on AI-made decisions (such as target selection) since the player is free to do whatever he pleases. Offline such behavior isn't possible (since the mission is tailored to the player's input) and offline is also susceptible to "external factors" such as moronic high-command decisions, geopolitical influences, economical factors etc ... All of which are far outside the scope of a flight sim but which have 99% of influence on the outcome of a military campaign while the player itself has 1% influence at best (if at all). A single pilot can't change the outcome of the BoB when all the relevant factors came from another sphere of responsibility ...

[Xilon_x]

I think I have an idea how to campaign in SoW.
The idea of an interface as the falcon4 and good, but you must think that this is a simulator of the 2WW, and that did not exist at the time of electronic monitors, to monitor the tactical situation of war.
You must think as if you are in your airport and your commander gives you 'orders.
In 'Airport, there were radios for communication maps to plan the route and there were the first types of radars.
The British did not monitor for monitoring the whole situation ENGLISH. but they had a map, and women with the wooden poles, according to radio communications coming from trains, troops or flocks, or been aware of the position the target on the map. NOT EXIST TV monitor or digital displays. FALCON4 war and modern electronic monitor.