BF109 - Can't we just have the gunsight in the middle?

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by unknwn

That's your choice not to get tracking hardware. You can also try flying only with a keyboard. But don't blame others for having some king of advantage. Trackir simulates head movements in game, like joystick simulates real controls in a plane.

P.S. Even with the gunsight in the middle you will have problems while manoeuvring and trying to aim without any tracking software/hardware.

And yet another. Now think if Spit and Hurri pilots could only turn their gunsight on when they were leaned forward? Of course you first need to wait that over a second the "loosening straps" takes, and not able to look around you...

IL2's (fb to 1946) system was, and is, lot more realistic than this.

[b101uk]

Originally Posted by Lixma

How many eyes does a camera have? = 1

How many eyes does the virtual pilot in CoD have? = 1

How many eyes does a (healthy) 109 pilot have? = 2

An illustration....

Now here's what a real 109 pilot would see. A pilot with binocular vision. A pilot with the reticle being projected fully into one eye.....




At the moment people are taking the current Cyclops view as 'Realism'.

err no, because from the edge of the reflector glass to the centre of the reflector glass is wider than the distance from the centreline of the nose to the centre of the right eye, only if the reflector glass from its left edge to is centre matched the average anatomical distance of the nose centreline vs. right eye would you see the above.

in reality with both eyes open and a wider reflector glass from its left edge to it centre you would get about <~66% of the reticle

To get the effect you depict the reflector glass would need its left edge central to your nose, the glass would need to be ~3” (~75mm) wide (~1.5" (~37.5mm) to reticle centre).

[unknwn]

Originally Posted by Erkki

And yet another. Now think if Spit and Hurri pilots could only turn their gunsight on when they were leaned forward? Of course you first need to wait that over a second the "loosening straps" takes, and not able to look around you...

IL2's (fb to 1946) system was, and is, lot more realistic than this.

How can you call instant leaning to the gunsight realistic? It isn't. Question is whether looking around while leaned should be available. I don't understand why you can turn your head so little.

[drewpee]

IMO its very hard to emulate the movement of a human body using a keyboard joystick or tracking head gear. Catching a ball would be a good example, you just couldn't do it using say a robot hand controlled by keyboard ex.
On the other hand controlling a machine is different, you can copy the movement of levers handles, wheels and switches with gaming devices.
There for making a short cut to make up for the lack of a human body is perfectly acceptable.
There are Axes pilots arguing against a change, but I suspect most opposition would be coming from the British side. After all the way it is centered gun sights have the advantage.
As far as realism go, that's why we have a choice to turn things on and off. If you want more people to play the game and keep it alive in the future you must make exceptions after all how many people started playing IL2 on easy settings(every one if their honest). One more small realism aid isn't going to destroy the game.

[skouras]

keep the realism please
don't take anything else......
if you want you can use the mouse hold the button and move it to align

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by b101uk

err no, because from the edge of the reflector glass to the centre of the reflector glass is wider than the distance from the centreline of the nose to the centre of the right eye,

I just measured the distance from the centre of my nose to middle of my pupil....37mm. Double that and we get 74mm (3 inch).

Now, I just tried Googling 'Revi dimensions' with no appreciable success but 74mm/3 inch on my tape measure looks pretty close to the width of an actual Revi's reflector.

To get the effect you depict the reflector glass would need its left edge central to your nose, the glass would need to be ~3” (~75mm) wide (~1.5" (~37.5mm) to reticle centre).

On screen in CoD the left hand edge of the Revi is bang down the centre-line (give or take 2mm), and those figures look good to me and confirm what my tape measure is suggesting.

[Wolf_Rider]

" besides, our histories of six thousand moons make no mention of any other regions than the two great empires of Lilliput and Blefuscu. Which two mighty powers have, as I was going to tell you, been engaged in a most obstinate war for six-and-thirty moons past. It began upon the following occasion. It is allowed on all hands, that the primitive way of breaking eggs, before we eat them, was upon the larger end; but his present majesty's grandfather, while he was a boy, going to eat an egg, and breaking it according to the ancient practice, happened to cut one of his fingers. Whereupon the emperor his father published an edict, commanding all his subjects, upon great penalties, to break the smaller end of their eggs. The people so highly resented this law, that our histories tell us, there have been six rebellions raised on that account; wherein one emperor lost his life, and another his crown. These civil commotions were constantly fomented by the monarchs of Blefuscu; and when they were quelled, the exiles always fled for refuge to that empire. It is computed that eleven thousand persons have at several times suffered death, rather than submit to break their eggs at the smaller end. Many hundred large volumes have been published upon this controversy: but the books of the Big-endians have been long forbidden, and the whole party rendered incapable by law of holding employments. During the course of these troubles, the emperors of Blefusca did frequently expostulate by their ambassadors, accusing us of making a schism in religion, by offending against a fundamental doctrine of our great prophet Lustrog, in the fifty-fourth chapter of the Blundecral (which is their Alcoran). This, however, is thought to be a mere strain upon the text; for the words are these: 'that all true believers break their eggs at the convenient end.'

And which is the convenient end, seems, in my humble opinion to be left to every man's conscience, or at least in the power of the chief magistrate to determine. Now, the Big-endian exiles have found so much credit in the emperor of Blefuscu's court, and so much private assistance and encouragement from their party here at home, that a bloody war has been carried on between the two empires for six-and-thirty moons, with various success; during which time we have lost forty capital ships, and a much a greater number of smaller vessels, together with thirty thousand of our best seamen and soldiers; and the damage received by the enemy is reckoned to be somewhat greater than ours. However, they have now equipped a numerous fleet, and are just preparing to make a descent upon us; and his imperial majesty, placing great confidence in your valour and strength, has commanded me to lay this account of his affairs before you."

- J Swift

Actually thinking about it I don't think that Lixma's picture is realistic.

BUT:
It might be possible that in fact one did not have to lean right for aim. It depends on how the reflector glas actually worked.

As far as I understood reflector sights the trick is to project light on a surface that is reflected so that the pilot can see it. Now from school we know that inbound angle = outbound angle. That is the benefit of the reflector sight with respect to iron sights because this makes the aiming point almost independent of small head movements. The image will slightly move but it won't impact the aiming as much.

A little picture about the basic principle after which to my understanding a reflector sight works. For simplicity I moved the light source into the same horizontal plane as the eye but the principle won't change at all with a 90° moved light source:



The angle between the reflector glas and the light beam emanating from the light source is equal to the line of sight when the eye is on the image. That's the basical law of optical physics.

Now what happens if the reflector glas is slightly inclined sideways? Yes, the angle between the light beam and the reflector glas decreases and so the angle between reflector sight and the eye line of view. This itself increases the angle between the light beam and the eye line of view so that the image can be seen from further aside. But it will be on the reflector glas and not on the window.

Here a drawing with the setup as described. I exagerated on purpose the inclination of the reflector side to better make the effect visible. Please also keep in mind that with appropriate glas cristal design it should be possible to obtain the same optical result without really inclining the reflector glas.



My strong feeling is that taking into account the tight cockpit dimensions of the 109 and the not so far off-centre position of the reflector sight a very very very tiny inclination would have been enough to allow seeing the image without leaning sideways.

Anyhow I agree with drewpee. I mean we're not talking about making the 109 turn better than the spit. We talk about computer hardware limitations in simulations and as far as I see it there's absolutely no loss in realism if the sights can be recentred on a button push (I even suggested something that is inbetween the current status and old IL2 days).

[drewpee]

Wolf you make my head hurt. LOL
But I do see your comparison.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

Actually thinking about it I don't think that Lixma's picture is realistic.

Why not?

1: You're sat in a 109.

2: Looking straight ahead.

3: Both eyes open.

4: Revi offset to project the reticle image directly into your right eye only.

I submit your view would be more or less like this..... (paintshop skills notwithstanding)



What would you see?