General Question: Status of the Italian Planes in CoD w/ TF 4.00

[Redroach]

Hey; as the title says:
I'm eyeing towards a new CoD Project, namely getting proficient in flying the somewhat exotic Italian fighters/bombers. So far, I've never even tried them, as my approach is to get somewhat proficient at least in flying and navigating with a certain plane model.
Then make this specific plane my semi-permanent ride, or I move on and get acquainted with another plane. So, I do it as RL-Pilots do - "transferring" from one model to another

Where was I: Ah, yes, have never flown italian aircraft. So, can someone give me a brief heads-up about the state of italian flight/damage/etc.-models in TF 4.00(*)? As a diehard-realism-geek, the experience has to come at least close to the real thing before I would consider switching.
What do you think?

P.S.:Just to be safe from trolling: This is in no way, not in the very least, to be understood as a critique in the direction of Team Fusion. I very much admire their work, which has given us back the real-deal CoD flying experience. I' standing 100% behind them!
Even if I would find something really nagging (which I just haven't), I'd go with what Charles de Gaulle (I believe) once said: "You just don't arrest Voltaire!"

(*) That the flight models, in general, suck in stock CoD, is quite clear. So, everything's about Team Fusion!

[theOden]

I'm not die-hard-realism style at all but I've flown a few hours in the G.50 and a mere few flights in the BR and I really enjoyed the G.50 once I got into all the extra levers.

How perfected the FM is is not for me to judge but as a heads-up I do have issues using the G.50 at all in TF4.00 patch, sadly.

Selecting one in FMB my whole client freeze up on me and nuclear the session is my only way out - I hope you have better luck, and if you do I guess I'm off for a reinstall of TF4.

Still never cought any brits or anything in it which I guess if quite accurate from a historic point of view though haha.

[Sokol1]

Selecting one in FMB my whole client freeze up on me and nuclear the session is my only way out - I hope you have better luck, and if you do I guess I'm off for a reinstall of TF4.

There's is nothing wrong with Italian planes in TF 4.0, the problem is with "pants" of Italian pilots.

It TF 3.0 they did "new" uniforms for pilots and for some reason AI pilots start flying with "parade" uniforms...

In TF 4.0 are option to force pilots use old uniforms (UseOldHumans in conf.ini), but in the exchange of uniforms the Italian pilots pants are lost/stolen,* so they refuse fly, what lead to game freeze in plane selection. Leave then in "parade" uniform and no problem.

Mystic Puma say that in future TF 4.20 the uniform question are solved.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...th#Post3919793

Redroach

To master Italian planes I suggest look at these parameters in TF wiki.

http://www.theairtacticalassaultgrou...nflightmanuals

I suggest to look at ATAG forum, is the actual CloD "place" - and a unofficial TF forum. Here is almost "dead" - Please, no offense to ones that "hold the candles".

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/forum.php

*OK. This detail I invented.

Sokol1

[theOden]

Haha Sokol1, wunderbar post of yours
Maybe I should experiment with that conf.ini setting.

[Rickusty]

Fiat G.50
The Fiat G.50 is a lovely little fighter. It goes as fast as a Hurricane I Rotol at sea level (NOT the 100 oct. one), so it's not so slow as many consider it to be. You can reach about 410 km/h at sea level.
High up it's slower for sure though, so above 4.500/5.000 meters you should watch out. At low alt it is a capable fighter.

It can master a good 960 Horsepower "burst" power in WEP mode, which is qutie a nifty power considering the light-weight nature of this particular kite.
It can climb as a Hurricane I (again, Rotol but not the more advanced versions) more or less.
It is, generally speaking, more maneuverable than the Hurricane, even though that doesn't mean it out-turns the Hawker.

Its visibility is the best among all the fighters in the game.
With the lateral flaps down, you can watch easily even UNDER your tail,and there are no obstructive panels anywhere.
Visibility is maybe one of its best feature and very useful in combat.

Armament is very good. The 12,7mm machineguns are powerful and are centered-mounted, so it's much easier to aim them. A short burst from a close distance is enough for everything.
Their ballistics are good, though they are not *fantastically* good: after 300/400 meters bullet drops start to become an issue.

Take off and landings are *decent*, not great; perhaps its short landing gear was not the best solution.

All in all, I love the G.50. I much, much prefer its 2x12,7mm centerline armament to the 8x7,7mm wing-guns armament of the British fighter, as convergence is non-existant.
It is not in the same leauge as a Spitfire I or II or a Bf.109E. These are more advanced machines, and are not directly comparable. The Hurricane I is its direct enemy.
Performance of the G.50 are almost the same as that of the Bf.109B used in Spain. From the Spanish civil war on, the G.50 still continued to have its engine installed, while the Luftwaffe installed on their 109 the fantastic DB601A.
The Spitfire is superior to everything the G.50 has, apart armament IMO.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fiat B.R. 20
The Fiat B.R.20 is a good medium level bomber. But it's pretty useless in the sim since a "bomb-sight" view switch more often than not creates a CTD to the game, so....

Without using its bomb-sighting device (why choose a bomber then?) it is a good, stable plane. An all metal bomber, which was quite modern when it appeared. A little faster than the He.111, but carrying less ordnance.
Defensive armament is poor though. Lateral guns are sorely missed...

It's somehow underpowerd on take-off, and has quite sensible engines I reckon... Once trimmed it flies well and straight. A huge wing with lots of lift helps you when coming back home.
It climbs rather slowly.

It's s *decent* enough bomber. I enjoy using it however.
Italian pilots didn't really love the plane, preferring the sturdy , reliable S.M.79 to it. [The CANT Z.1007 was considered superior to both and very modern and fast.
I would love to have this beauty in the game. 5 of them were sent in Belgium in 1940 as reconnaissance planes. (please TF!)]
Its 12,7mm dorsal gun is potentially very powerful, but its inverted controls take lots of time to master.
Sometimes the "electro-generator" doesn't work properly for some reasons and the turret turns very slowly... if the engines are "hot" and oil as well, I found out the turret turns a lot faster.
Ventral gunner is VERY vurnerable to enemy action. I would have been very scary to sit pratically "in the sky" withouth anything around. At least as a psycological sense of protection

But the Ju.86 had the same system. The B.R.20 can be considered an "italian Ju.86", the two bombers are very similiar.

[Sokol1]

Fiat B.R. 20
The Fiat B.R.20 is a good medium level bomber. But it's pretty useless in the sim since a "bomb-sight" view switch more often than not creates a CTD to the game, so....

The workaround for CTD when look through bombsight is dont move the camera with mouse when go for bombardier cockpit (set a macro with keys to move to turret and to bombsight help). Players that use TrackIR or NewView dont have this problem.

I think this will be addressed by TF in Patch 4.20 (just in "two weeks" ).

Its 12,7mm dorsal gun is potentially very powerful, but its inverted controls take lots of time to master.

BR-20 dorsal turret should by controlled with joystick axis and not with mouse - because this turret is powered, so the control turn more natural .

Set joystick X and Y axis to control the upper turret movement and check "invert axis" for X.

To avoid turn the turret and plane at same time , use a key, e.g. space, to modify joystick X, Y axis behavior -if the key is pressed joystick X, Y axis control only the turret, released control plane, as normal.

Using joystick result in the best turret control that I see in WWII CFS (since 1942: PAW).

Perhaps unknown for many players, but CloD controls - despite some conceptual flaws - are very flexible (allow use key/button to modify axis - as above - set any key/button to modify key/button, duplicate controls...)

Notice that control turret with joystick axis only work for Br.20 dorsal turret (because is powered - the only in CloD*). Not work for others because in these the joystick spring force the MG to center making the control awkward. For these other turrets use mouse.

* In TF 4.20 Blenheim turret will be powered (as IRL).

Gunners - human and AI - will be revised in TF 4.20.
The restriction to fire if plane climb or dive above 5 m/s will change.
Same for turret inverted axis (Russian programers have habit to invert things - in CloD convergence horizontal vertical are inverted too (fixed in TF 3.0), in il-2 Bo$ the enable/disable Force Feedback came inverted in last (Alpha) release . )

Recharge time - that now varies from 7 to 20+ seconds, depend on plane and turret location - will be reduced for ~8 seconds.

Sometimes the "electro-generator" doesn't work properly for some reasons and the turret turns very slowly... if the engines are "hot" and oil as well, I found out the turret turns a lot faster.

TF 4.20 will remove the “Avio Compressori Garelli RE” (auxiliary power unit under pilot seat, that shakes the plane a lot) and drive the slave compass, turret with engines
hydraulic pressure.

In TF 4.0 is possible use the "autopilot" commands of German bombers in Br.20 (and Blenheim) - a compromise to make level bomber viable.

In short, BR-20 will be improved, is just mater of more "two weeks, be sure".

Sokol1

[Rickusty]

Great post Sokol1!

Lots of interesting and very useful solutions (which I didn't know befoer).
Thank you!

[theOden]

Some interesting G.50 notes from readme of upcoming TF4.20:

---
The Fiat G-50 has had a complete revision of its engine, overheat and roll characteristics.

The original developers had given the G50 overly large fin, rudder, stabilizer and elevator area. As well, the ratio between the fixed surfaces and moveable ones were out of balance. All which resulted in an overly stable and sluggish aircraft. The change to historical values results in a much more harmonized set of controls. In addition, the developers had undersized the ailerons, the game values were 1.3 m2 instead of 1.52 m2 in the real aircraft. The change to correct values gives better rollrate performance.

After entering the correct values, the game aircraft now better reflects the historical aircraft, characterized as underpowered, but very maneuverable within its optimum maneuver envelope of 300 - 350 kmh

Overheat, Climb times and Speeds now more precisely match the original documents.

The G50's 12.7mm Breda Safat Machine Cannon have their sound effect replaced with one which is more characteristic of the type and the engine sound is deepened.
---

[Rickusty]

Originally Posted by theOden

Some interesting G.50 notes from readme of upcoming TF4.20:

---
The Fiat G-50 has had a complete revision of its engine, overheat and roll characteristics.

The original developers had given the G50 overly large fin, rudder, stabilizer and elevator area. As well, the ratio between the fixed surfaces and moveable ones were out of balance. All which resulted in an overly stable and sluggish aircraft. The change to historical values results in a much more harmonized set of controls. In addition, the developers had undersized the ailerons, the game values were 1.3 m2 instead of 1.52 m2 in the real aircraft. The change to correct values gives better rollrate performance.

After entering the correct values, the game aircraft now better reflects the historical aircraft, characterized as underpowered, but very maneuverable within its optimum maneuver envelope of 300 - 350 kmh

Overheat, Climb times and Speeds now more precisely match the original documents.

The G50's 12.7mm Breda Safat Machine Cannon have their sound effect replaced with one which is more characteristic of the type and the engine sound is deepened.
---

Nice. Thank you for the news!