4.12 ai

[pandacat]

I am not sure if DT members can see this post. 4.12 AI has some serious flaws. After hours of playing offline, the AIs really cracked me up. Not only there is no noticable difference between rookie and ace, but also AI behaviors are very strange. There are instances where I saw 190 making full 180 negative G level turns. Fighters flying straight into falling wreckage even though they are miles away and had more than enough time to evade. Friendly mid-air collision is so frequent that wingmen are more dangerous than foe. Even if you told them to use loose formation, they still bundle together and flying so wingtip-to-wingtip and nose-to-tail that you can clearly see what color of shirt they are wearing. I wish I could post some videos to demonstrate what I am talking about.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by pandacat

Not only there is no noticable difference between rookie and ace, but also AI behaviors are very strange.

There is clearly a noticable difference between rookie and ace, aces fly better, shoot better and coordinate better with their teammates. Just try one on two in QMB vs them, same or similar planes.

Originally Posted by pandacat

Friendly mid-air collision is so frequent that wingmen are more dangerous than foe. Even if you told them to use loose formation, they still bundle together and flying so wingtip-to-wingtip and nose-to-tail that you can clearly see what color of shirt they are wearing.

Yes it happens too often, that any two pilots of a flight collide. Especially when you do an "unexpected" maneuvre, like a long flat turn or a not too steep loop - and your wingmen are a few hundred metres behind and their way to their intended position on your wing leads through you - you are doomed.
And when you want them to hold a tight formation, like for level bombing, they somtimes trail behind....

But I do not think this is new behaviour, I feel like AI has ever been this dense, and I know for sure 4.11 AI did the crash into own flight thing - I once lost all three wingmen in 4.11 -just because I made a 180 degree turn.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Yes it happens too often, that any two pilots of a flight collide. Especially when you do an "unexpected" maneuvre, like a long flat turn or a not too steep loop - and your wingmen are a few hundred metres behind and their way to their intended position on your wing leads through you - you are doomed.

Yes, it's difficult to tell which collisions are caused involuntarily and indirectly by you, and which ones would have happened all the way. I have the feeling (but cannot prove exactly) that mid-air collisions are now less frequent than they used to be before. Maybe the AI is more careful, maybe I fly in a less maverick way, maybe both. Anyway, in my offline campaigns, where some 40+ aircrafts are flying scattered all around the map, I often see on the debrief map that one (or sometimes two) pairs have 'crashed' at the same location. This ratio is not that unrealistic. In my past 10-12 mission it has never happened that one of my AI mates doomed me, and it happened only one or two times that two AIs from my squad collided. I was number two, I must admit, so I had better chances not to provoke a collision with a wingman.

[Oscarito]

I've also noticed a significative change mainly on low grade pilots (rockies). They are far more aggressive and pertinacious than never. They're not supposed to be...

[pandacat]

Rookies in 4.12 is more skilled than that in 4.11. But that's fine. It's more fun. Back in 4.11, I can occasionally kill 1-2 ace level AI. But in 4.12, even the veteran AIs are almost untouchable. It seems they have pair of eyes on the back of their heads and can see every single move you make and counter it. I agree I am not that skilled in the art of dogfight. Perhaps other people can do much better against AI than I do. But mid-air is just so annoying. Any way to possibly increase the spacing in the loose formation? Would that help out a bit.

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by pandacat

Rookies in 4.12 is more skilled than that in 4.11. But that's fine. It's more fun. Back in 4.11, I can occasionally kill 1-2 ace level AI. But in 4.12, even the veteran AIs are almost untouchable. It seems they have pair of eyes on the back of their heads and can see every single move you make and counter it. I agree I am not that skilled in the art of dogfight. Perhaps other people can do much better against AI than I do. But mid-air is just so annoying. Any way to possibly increase the spacing in the loose formation? Would that help out a bit.

There is radio command you can use, tighten or loosen the formation, if you're the group commander of airplanes. probably in the formation radio commands, I just don't know if it will work though.

Yea, veteran/ace AI is a lot more deadly, and has supposedly "eyes on the back of the head" hehe...

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by pandacat

Rookies in 4.12 is more skilled than that in 4.11. But that's fine. It's more fun. Back in 4.11, I can occasionally kill 1-2 ace level AI. But in 4.12, even the veteran AIs are almost untouchable. It seems they have pair of eyes on the back of their heads and can see every single move you make and counter it. I agree I am not that skilled in the art of dogfight. Perhaps other people can do much better against AI than I do. But mid-air is just so annoying. Any way to possibly increase the spacing in the loose formation? Would that help out a bit.

Can't confirm the rookies are better part, but hard to judge if that's because I'm a little better than in 4.11. And yes Ace AI is difficult, in a one on one they are fine - but as a team they are really good. Try fighting two ace AI F4Fs in a A6M - you are not allowed to make any mistake, and need to constantly know what the other is doing while you are trying to get one.
And there is no art in dogfighting - as long as you have a clear plan how to get out of the fight - you can enter. That means always entering the fight with an advantage - speed/altitude or potential speed/altitude (faster plane// better climbiing plane). And even if your plane vastly outperforms the enemys you cannot let your guard down, its always the better option to get out of the fight, climb/run away, rejudge your approch, and reengage. Don't get caught low and slow by other enemys just because you followed the AI down -and they love to drag you down.

With 4.12 I think your own AI is a little more responsive to teamwork. Recently I engaged three F4F in a Zero + my AI wingman. And I did give him a lot of commands - by ordering him to attack and disengage and cover me and whatnot I could get him to distract the enemy and in the end he bagged one and I got the other two - that felt good. Try commanding the AI around all the time, and sometimes they will really do what you wanted them to. And that formation thing, sometimes the order to loosen formation doesn't get into the AIs mind, they say Yes and do No. Even repeatedly ordering does sometimes not help.
(Pilot to AI: "Loose formation, guys, I don't want you to collide."
AI1 to AI2: "What he said?"
AI2 to AI1: "Something about us colliding"
AI1 to AI2: "Really, that's a harsh order"
AI2 to AI1: "But he is the player, we need to obey!"
AI1 colllides with AI2.....)

[pandacat]

LOL, that's exactly how I feel about the AI formation fly and collision thing. They just ignore you.

For the teamworking part, I do agree that teamwork is very important. But I just have hard time getting AI wingmen to do what I want them to do. If I order them to cover me, they just stick to my tail and do nothing even though a bandit is approaching from behind and then crying "somebody get him off my tail". Also, one time I was sitting right behind a flock of bombers and order my flight to attack those bombers. They simply answered "unable" It seems that the commands "attack fighters, attack bombers..." are screwed up. They don't respond to these commands correctly. The only effective command is "someone help me".

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by pandacat

LOL, that's exactly how I feel about the AI formation fly and collision thing. They just ignore you.

For the teamworking part, I do agree that teamwork is very important. But I just have hard time getting AI wingmen to do what I want them to do. If I order them to cover me, they just stick to my tail and do nothing even though a bandit is approaching from behind and then crying "somebody get him off my tail". Also, one time I was sitting right behind a flock of bombers and order my flight to attack those bombers. They simply answered "unable" It seems that the commands "attack fighters, attack bombers..." are screwed up. They don't respond to these commands correctly. The only effective command is "someone help me".

Tell your wingman anything, and if he doesn't do what you'd like him to do order anything close (E.g. cover me - because there is a bandit on your tail, but maybe to far away for him to recognise as a threat, tell him attack fighters - and then if he doesn't do what you want, let him reform, and try again with cover me etc.) And sometimes there is no way an AI is going to do what you want them to do - it happens when they are directly above a ground target, you tell them to attack it and they all say, "Will do" but continue stupidly to fly on your wing. I have not found out how to get them to attack then. Happens moslty with ground targets that have already been shot at. But happens with bombers, too.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by pandacat

The only effective command is "someone help me".

I would rather say the most effective command is 'someone help me', while other commands are less effective. Perhaps because 'someone help me' is unconditional, it depends only on your will to ask for help. Other commands become effective only upon certain conditions, I guess, and the problem is that it's not always clear what exactly these conditions are. There are quite a lot of commands now, and we use them intuitively, but possibly not always in the way they were designed to work. All in all, it would be useful to know what they should do and when they should do that.