F4U Takeoff problem

[horseback]

During the war, Corsairs, Hellcats, even Spitfires, P-40s and P-47s were all flown off of CVE type carriers with full combat loads by average service pilots on several occasions without the aid of catapults. Taking off wasn't the problem; landing on a shorter, slower, more unstable CVE deck was a distinct problem.

By every account, the Wildcat was one of the hardest aircraft to take off from a carrier--the F4F-4 and FM-1 models were especially somewhat underpowered, and the darned things were so torque-y on top of those narrow landing gear that almost anything after that must have seemed like a piece of cake by comparison. Certainly, the late-war carrier fighters should have more than enough power and lift to clear even a short carrier deck easily with a normal combat load.

I think that there's either something 'off' in the acceleration & takeoff modeling or that the 'correct' procedure for the Player to achieve the desired results is not well known or understood.

cheers

horseback

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by horseback

During the war, Corsairs, Hellcats, even Spitfires, P-40s and P-47s were all flown off of CVE type carriers with full combat loads by average service pilots on several occasions without the aid of catapults. Taking off wasn't the problem; landing on a shorter, slower, more unstable CVE deck was a distinct problem.

By every account, the Wildcat was one of the hardest aircraft to take off from a carrier--the F4F-4 and FM-1 models were especially somewhat underpowered, and the darned things were so torque-y on top of those narrow landing gear that almost anything after that must have seemed like a piece of cake by comparison. Certainly, the late-war carrier fighters should have more than enough power and lift to clear even a short carrier deck easily with a normal combat load.

I think that there's either something 'off' in the acceleration & takeoff modeling or that the 'correct' procedure for the Player to achieve the desired results is not well known or understood.

cheers

horseback

If I'm not mistaken, those were all much larger than the one class of CVE that we have from Pacific Fighters.

The Wildcat may have been a bit of a handful but it was still the aircraft of choice for these tiny pocket carriers. At the battle of Leyte Gulf it was a few Wildcats and Avengers from the CVE's of Taffy 3 that held back a much larger force. There was no Hellcat or Corsair employed from these carriers.

[The Stalker]

I don't think F4U-s ever took off from CVE as it seems the corsair is much too heavy for such a short deck. I may not a best pilot tactically, but I know how to make smooth maneuvers with the plane, and it isn't helping.

The best I got with the 1A model is takeoff with 70% fuel. But I can take off from a moving carrier with the 1D every time without a hitch as its a bit more powerful.

[IceFire]

If any Corsairs launched from a CVE it would have been one of the larger ones for sure...

I'll modify the training missions and submit to TD for approval. Those missions were setup with, I think anyways, very little understanding of Pacific flight ops, and certainly CVE's wouldn't be used for Corsair flight training...

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

..and they were made in times, where Corsairs FMs where still quite optimistic.
And maybe they should be some challenge indeed - if you learn how to start from a CVE, then you will do it from a CV with a smile.

However, further tips for take of with F4U from CVE:

1. Use tailwheel lock so you don't have to use much rudder in the beginning of the acceleration

2. Push stick forward to early lift the tail (keep calm and sensilbe, when it happens)

3. Open flaps shortly before leaving the deck and maybe open them to landing config (ground lift effect will happen over the water, at the deck the flaps only slow you down)

4. Its normal that you sink lower after leaving the deck, so don't over-react trying to pulling too high - at that point you need speed more than height (paradox, I know)

5. Close radiators and cockpit and set mixture to 120% - every little bit can help!

[The Stalker]

Thanks, just one last question since we're at it. What exactly does the 120% mixture setting do?

I always thought it simply pumped more fuel that wasn't used but cooled the engine. Does it also develop more power? When should I use it generally?

[JtD]

Originally Posted by The Stalker

Thanks, just one last question since we're at it. What exactly does the 120% mixture setting do?

I always thought it simply pumped more fuel that wasn't used but cooled the engine. Does it also develop more power? When should I use it generally?

To my knowledge, it only cools. It doesn't appear to increase power output or fuel consumption. I use it to run the engine cool at sea level.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

3. Open flaps shortly before leaving the deck and maybe open them to landing config (ground lift effect will happen over the water, at the deck the flaps only slow you down)

That's not right.

That's not physics.

It may be how to make a flight sim, but it isn't what would happen in the real world. In the real world, you would get surface effect over any non-porous surface (i.e. not a net with air below it, but you wouldn't try to land on that anyway).

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

That's not right.

That's not physics.

It may be how to make a flight sim, but it isn't what would happen in the real world. In the real world, you would get surface effect over any non-porous surface (i.e. not a net with air below it, but you wouldn't try to land on that anyway).

I think flaps do generate lift on the carrier deck, too. But they also create drag -slowing you down a little. As you dont need lift on the carrier deck, you don't get any advantage from extending flaps early. As you can't extend them in an instant you need to compromise between drag and lift flaps create - and extend them on the way to the deck edge.

[horseback]

Originally Posted by IceFire

If I'm not mistaken, those were all much larger than the one class of CVE that we have from Pacific Fighters.

The Wildcat may have been a bit of a handful but it was still the aircraft of choice for these tiny pocket carriers. At the battle of Leyte Gulf it was a few Wildcats and Avengers from the CVE's of Taffy 3 that held back a much larger force. There was no Hellcat or Corsair employed from these carriers.

Well, let's start with a comparison to the TBF, which usually operated off those CVEs with the Wildcat; powered by an R-2600 generating about 1,900 horses vs the 2,000+ hp R-2800 which powered the Corsair and Hellcat. The Avenger's empty weight is 2,000 lbs heavier than the Corsair's, and it was usually heavily loaded with fuel and bombs, rockets or torpedoes on takeoff. A fully internally laden Avenger carried about 16,500 lbs with a wing area of 490 square ft; a loaded clean Corsair weighed in at 10,500 lbs with a wing area of 314 square ft, which works out to less than one pound (less than .5 kg) difference in weight per square foot of wing area with an extra 5-10% of takeoff power

I think that we should also remember that CVEs were the primary means of supplying replacement aircraft to deployed carrier task groups in the last 18 months or so of the Pacific war; they routinely flew replacement Corsairs, Hellcats, Helldivers and Avengers from the jeep carriers to the fast big carriers when the big boys started running short of aircraft before their combat tour was over. It was (and is still) actually far easier to take off from a smaller deck than it was to land.

They put Wildcats on those little carriers for two reasons: they could more safely land on those smaller decks and they took up less space while still capable of performing the necessary light CAP, escort and ground attack functions, not because they could take off from them more easily.

cheers

horseback