Balancing suggestions for Runemage

[monkeydog]

This OP issue with these units is mainly do to infinite phantom images. One suggestion would be to make it usable once and for every 20 mind runes get 1 more turn make 40 mind runes maximum. Maybe lower the percentage created as well. Of course it needs to be independent of the rune replenish option the rune Mage has for this to be possible. I'm sure you guys could come up with something better. This is just a start. Hopefully the devs can incorporate something in next patch. I just stop using them altogether. I was using two stacks of them with paladins and horseman.

[Nirual]

the health percentage definitely needs nerfing. If I was a developer, I'd probably change the Phantom spell in general so Phantoms can't use any abilities of the original, which is the central point people abuse. But failing that, the Rune Mage version definitely needs to be weaker in terms of health percentage.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Nirual

the health percentage definitely needs nerfing. If I was a developer, I'd probably change the Phantom spell in general so Phantoms can't use any abilities of the original, which is the central point people abuse. But failing that, the Rune Mage version definitely needs to be weaker in terms of health percentage.

Considering the original Rune Mage made "pseudo" phantoms with leadership tied to per rune mage (let's say hypothetically 100 leadership per rune mage), there was definitely two different balance teams working on Crossworlds and Warriors of the North.

It is pretty silly that I easily figured out that 4 small stacks of 1 rune mage could artificially deliver insane firepower with Phantom Crush. The same Phantom firepower as 4 stacks of 50 rune mages each. Of course that's an extreme example (since you don't want to every lose an entire stack, so I kept maybe 20 per stack).

Yeah, being able to use the abilities is abusive and in a weird way they sort of did that. Rune mages don't get new runes (if you phantom a rune mage), orcs don't start with any initial adrenaline, but the royal griffin can still cast their celestial guards. I agree with your suggestion though.

Even without that though, I could crush everyone with 2-3 stacks of horsemen. Another balance issue is that rune mage phantoms in particular start IMMEDIATELY after being cast, unlike normal phantom which throws them back into the queue. This gives them the unique advantage of being similar to Summon Phoenix (a summon that can cut in front of the enemy's initiative) but in a caster form and with a split stack you can do it multiple times.

[Nirual]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Even without that though, I could crush everyone with 2-3 stacks of horsemen. Another balance issue is that rune mage phantoms in particular start IMMEDIATELY after being cast, unlike normal phantom which throws them back into the queue. This gives them the unique advantage of being similar to Summon Phoenix (a summon that can cut in front of the enemy's initiative) but in a caster form and with a split stack you can do it multiple times.

Actually a good spellcaster can get Phantoms moving instantly too, at least if you pick a high ini target.

But yes, the splitting is an issue too. I'm generally not fond of abilities that work completely separate of troop size /leadership, and this is by far the worst one.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Nirual

Actually a good spellcaster can get Phantoms moving instantly too, at least if you pick a high ini target.

But yes, the splitting is an issue too. I'm generally not fond of abilities that work completely separate of troop size /leadership, and this is by far the worst one.

This is true, but with rune mages I can pick slow pokes to help burn counterattacks faster. It is nice, but a bit alarming when it is vastly superior to the real spell "Phantom".

Actually, what other abilities work independently of troop size / leadership? I was experimenting the other day and realized Demonesses' Charm works on 80% of leadership... of their own stack. Haha!

Hypnosis actually does work on 80% of your leadership (seems like a Viking/Skald COULD somewhat use this but eh).

They really took some time to balance out the older abilities. I'm always curious on more evil imba.

They really wanted to get this "Rune" theme going, yet I hate the Rune Magic Tree with a passion and beginning to dislike the Rune Mages even more.

[Nirual]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Actually, what other abilities work independently of troop size / leadership? I was experimenting the other day and realized Demonesses' Charm works on 80% of leadership... of their own stack. Haha!

to start with Demonesses, their swap ability. Wolf Howl (though at least it has a level restriction), Dryad Lullaby (same), Zombie Pass, Skeleton Sow Bones, and just about any creature buff/debuff ability such as those the Skald has.
Not all of those are as problematic and abusable as the runemages, but 3 stacks of demonesses are a nightmare for me.

And then there is the Paladin "Second Wind" and the Jarl version which have a leadership requirement... but its about 3 times the leadership of the troop using it, which makes it easy for a Phantom stack to give the turn to the Runemages that created it, even if its a full stack.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Nirual

to start with Demonesses, their swap ability. Wolf Howl (though at least it has a level restriction), Dryad Lullaby (same), Zombie Pass, Skeleton Sow Bones, and just about any creature buff/debuff ability such as those the Skald has.
Not all of those are as problematic and abusable as the runemages, but 3 stacks of demonesses are a nightmare for me.

And then there is the Paladin "Second Wind" and the Jarl version which have a leadership requirement... but its about 3 times the leadership of the troop using it, which makes it easy for a Phantom stack to give the turn to the Runemages that created it, even if its a full stack.

With regards to splitting stacks to take advantage of said abilities, I don't find them too imbalanced.

Infernal Exchange is cool and while annoying, I like the challenge of dealing with it on the receiving end.

As for when we are initiating it against the enemy, for no loss guys it is somewhat trickier to deal with but I think DG found a way to abuse it (Ancient Ents mwhaha).

It isn't like having multiple stacks of demonesses with infernal swap would result in a severe imbalance (on the offensive side).

Zombie pass is pretty strong but zombies are so crappy and you can't really chain pass for the same guy.

Skald is pretty junky so he needs a useful skill. Of course this is assuming you patched Avenging Angel and Pygmy. Although skald is sort of borderline out of control... ;0 I think you can buff any level on your side, but debuffs are level capped.

This could be interesting since splitting skalds would let you buff/debuff in the same turn but that's a painful loss of leadership as skalds are essentially worthless for 4 rounds.

Paladin same thing with zombie pass.

Yeah 3 stacks of demonesses are annoying for me too. That's what makes it fun though!

[Nirual]

Just seems inconsistent to me.

And fixing those would also remove a lot of the abuse potential of phantoms as skills go (ie. Skald phantom to use both abilities, no matter how weak the stack is).

[Fatt_Shade]

Couple of abilities that have no lds requirement, but are useful in game :
1) Marauder looter , 1 marauder can dig same amount of gold as 1000 of them (so leading only 1 gives you same gold bonus, but you get more rage skill exp due to better enemy/ally lds ratio). Wit only 1 marauder i got almost 2 million gold in the Legend before first trip to Freedom islands.
2) Archmages telekinesis and magic shield. Telekinesis great for trapper medal , magic shield for tank unit. Again only 1 archmage is enough for this abilities and good for rage sills exp.
3) Guard droid hook attack for trapper medal , and light beam for mass defenceless/blind on enemy depending on race.
4) Spider web, only 1 spider 1st vll can disable any size of 1-4 lvl units for 2 turns. Now that`s really sick.
5) Engineers fire bomb , mass blind for 1-3 lvl units another sick ability.
6) Snake lunge attack , 1 snake could stun any size of stack. And many others . . .

[dainbramage]

First up: Phantom has to depend on the leadership of the rune mage stack. This should be obvious. Start it at a quarter of the rune mage's leadership, and runes increase that to 45.

Secondly: No infinite phantoms. Give them a fixed number of charges based on the number of runes they enter combat with, which isn't increased with runic word. Alternatively, make it like it was in crossworlds where it phantoms a random enemy stack, or angelic guards. This way you can't infinite phantom paladins for free infinite res.