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#1
02-19-2013, 11:40 PM
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Sorry for the long delay, but re-reading all those P-47Ds accounts is a large "investment" of my time, and you'll understand I have other things to do than to convince people...
I'll just post part of the long rambling post I prepeared, and yes there will be P-47 accounts to debate... I did find TWO account of Me-109Gs causing some trouble in turns to a P-47, both by the same P-47 pilot, Covelle. They are sustained turns, but they are hardly a show of crushing Me-109 superiority... That they are both from the same pilot, out of hundreds of accounts of P-47s beating Me-109s in typically 2-3 turns, is hardly convincing, not to mention the content of the reports. Rare, rare, RARE case of the Me-109G causing the P-47 trouble in a Luftberry: Only one of two I am aware of so far...: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...er-11feb44.jpg Another rare case of a P-47 in trouble vs a Me-109, by Covelle again, despite him having no trouble with his tanks full previously, now had trouble with one out 109 out of several (but equal to the others): Then, out of ammunition and still fighting(!): "I broke into this 109 and he tacked on to me, but I managed to out-turn him until I reached the clouds": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...le-7june44.jpg Note this, however, before the nay-sayers start singing in the streets over these two accounts...: I have no doubt a reduced-power ME-109G will out-turn a full power paddle-blade P-47D, especially a Bubbletop and especially to the right... So I'll get back to those later... With that out of the way, let's try once again to inject a bit of observed FW-190A reality into this... (And I will spell it this way...) Tactical and technical trends, Nov. 5-11 1942: -"Maneuverability--Except at lower speeds-around 140 MPH(!)- The FW-190 is superior and will out-turn the P-38" (A FW-190A-4) -1943 British test: "The P-38G and FW-190A-4 are roughly similar in turning ability" Note this combat of a P-38G against a Me-109G: Lt. Royal Madden from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944 “Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral. We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet. Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.” [!!!!] Well Ok it is all meningless etc... Anyway, here are a few P-47 combat reports with my comments: -Poor FW-190A high-speed handling (400 MPH speed, elongated loop, abrupt pitching-up, blacking out the pilot as in the "tendency to black-out the pilot" in the P-47 test two links above (nose high deceleration in a broad curve of course), snapping completely out in 400mph turns etc...): http://www.spitfireperformance...0-murrell-2dec44.jpg Inability of the FW-190A to make turns at 500 mph: "He tried short sharp turns right and left, and what seemed skidding turns down. There was no violent evasive action at all.": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-2march44.jpg Superior P-47D turn rate against Me-109G (contrast later to FW-190A): http://www.wwiiaircraftperform.../56-mudge-1dec43.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...-covelle-19may44.jpg Lesser or nil P-47D superiority in turns to right vs Me-109G (as example of why the opposite could be demonstrated: It seems the P-47D out-turned the Me-109G severely to the left mostly): http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...truluck-27sept43.jpg Now contrast this to the FW-190A-8, late in 1944 (The P-47 has to escape in a zoom...): http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg More Me-109G turnfight-beating links http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...cdermott-25may44.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...8-luckey-19may44.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...-covelle-19may44.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...rth-7oct44.jpg "I easily out-turned them (2 Me-109Gs) from 9000 ft to 2000 ft": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-15march44.jpg "We started turning with several 109s, and were having no difficulty doing it at 23500 ft. with full tanks" "About 4 (109s)across the circle from and five pulling in on us from six o'clock. But as we pulled deflection on the others across from us, the rest seemed to lose interest in the fight and disappeared" 10 000 ft.: "The e/a started trying to turn, and we out-turned them immediately" http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...le-19may44.jpg Earlier needle-tip prop (pre-Jan-1944) P-47Ds also showed a significant superiority in sustained turns to the Me-109G, except that to the right the margin is closer: "My excess speed was about gone but I was gradually getting inside and nearer to him" ---Despite being in a right-turning Luftberry: Close to stalling but still gaining...: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg Luftberry http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...e-8april44.jpg Turning` http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-22feb44-b.jpg two turns around hangar and "I was continually out-turning him" http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...t-8april44.jpg two luftberrys. I closed on the last E/A http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...tz-29nov44.jpg "tight luftberry. My excess airspeed was about gone, but I was gradually getting inside and nearer to him (Me-109)" http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...k-27sept43.jpg "In this engagement we succeeded in out-diving and out-turning the enemy (Me-109) at any altitude" http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...on-12may44.jpg 8000 ft-"We had no difficulty turning and climbing with them": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ey-19may44.jpg In another example, which I could not find, a gondola Me-109G holds its own to the right with a P-47D at high altitude. (Altitude seem to matter little in relative P-47D vs Me-109G turn performance) In another example of P-47D turn assymetry vs the Me-109G, notice how, against the very same Me-109G, the contest is a LOT longer and closer when to the RIGHT (several P-47 pilot quotes confirm the strong preference of the P-47D for the left turn)...: http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...wilkinson-1dec43.jpg Interesting mixture of turning and dive/zooming by a FW-190A: I would call it an unusually equitable use of both turning and dive and zoom: He gets killed in a zoom: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-23march44.jpg Against a late FW-190A-8, no so easy...: "We fought a long running and turning fight eastward, during which which I was out-turned several times which necessitated climbing and allowing the e/a to run" Just before that a Luftberry alone with 3 Me-109s had resulted in a kill... http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ke-19dec44.jpg Against the FW-190A? Not so easy...: Again, long turning battle with the FW-190A, a rough match: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-22april44.jpg Again,"not being able to hold any more deflection" against a FW-190A: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-8march44.jpg "Not being able to tighten my turn any further" against a FW-190A, and "overrunnning" him twice in the same sentence: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...l-8march44.jpg Now... For a fair comparison, wouldn't you agree a first step would be similar amount of combat accounts showing the "superior turn-fighting" Me-109Gs out-turning the poor helpless P-47? (And this at low speeds in sustained multiple circles, I might add, since high speeds did seem to favour the Me-109G vs the P-47 at least a little...) Very noteworthy in these accounts is that altitude seems to matter little when the Me-109 goes up against a P-47: On the deck, very high, pretty much the same... I collated this from a larger post, sorry if there are repetitions... I imagined all of it anyway you know... Gaston |
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#2
02-20-2013, 02:21 PM
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Why, those aerp-engineers and scientists... all they know is some numbers, not the truth while you alone are able to adjust things back. They are just ignorant children compared to your dazzling insight. For example, they don't even know what "stress risers" are, and they invented the term! The Fools! |
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#3
02-21-2013, 04:16 PM
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A.S. I am surprised that you think that Me109 was capable in the turning combat. There is general opinion that BF109 was rather average when it comes to combat with many manuevers. It`s very common opinion that BF109G with its technical and tactical characteristics was rather "hunter" then turnfighter..
I.K. Lies! Me109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be Messer! Speedy, maneuverable,(especially in vertical) and extremely dynamic. I can`t tell about all other things, but taking under consideration what i said above, Messerschmitt was ideal for dogfight. But for some reason majority of german pilots didn`t like turn fight, till this day i don`t know why. I don`t know what was stopping them, but it`s definitely not the plane. I know that for a fact. I remember battle of Kursk where german aces were starting "roller-coaster" rides where our heads were about to come off from rotation. No, seriously... Is it true it`s a common thing now that Messer wasn`t maneuverable? A.S. Yes. I.K. Heh.. Why would people come up with something like this... It was maneuverable...by god it was. From here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...-soviet-pilot? |
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#4
02-21-2013, 07:21 PM
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You still haven't answered Gliders challenge. I know you think you do, but you actually haven't. It's your task to simply pick one combat report you like. Nothing more. Not to post a dozen or so selected examples.
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#5
02-21-2013, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Below 4,000 ft a BoB Hurricane was able to out-turn a BoB 109 given similar starts and pilots. Above 8,000 ft the same Hurricane was hopeless in a turning fight with the same. The difference was made by relative power of both at different altitudes. Quote:
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#7
02-21-2013, 10:10 PM
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And you are not.
I have run the roller coaster fight in a few sims since 1990. A wingover, which requires excess speed will beat a flat turn every time. But I did not invent these things. I learned from others who learned from others (in some cases, their Air Force instructors). AFAICT the first to effectively use the vertical in combat was Max Immelmann in 1916. Robert Shaw covers this in his book as well, right down to the foundations. |
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