4.11 - AI debugging

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Now, that's classic I've been hearing it for some ten years, initially from Oleg himself, then from his devoted followers, for some reason called 'fan boys', as you might remember. Almost every bug can be 'considered a feature' with a bit of imagination. Why then fix them and make this sim better? Isn't it easier to imagine and 'explain'?

Dude, I honestly have no idea where the angry attitude is coming from. Let me make it clear then. What you suggest doesn't automatically make for a better experice with the A.I. Perhaps one thing is gained but at the loss of another behavior which is not inherently wrong IMHO. Target fixation did happen.

So, no idea what the problem is here, but I think there's a great opportunity to create something interesting with something that the AI already does.

[Stig1207]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Dude, I honestly have no idea where the angry attitude is coming from. Let me make it clear then. What you suggest doesn't automatically make for a better experice with the A.I. Perhaps one thing is gained but at the loss of another behavior which is not inherently wrong IMHO. Target fixation did happen.

So, no idea what the problem is here, but I think there's a great opportunity to create something interesting with something that the AI already does.

Agree with Ice, no reason not to keep this discussion civil.

That being said, I also think that Lagarto has a good case in all calling this AI behavior a bug. After all, it's not one AI pilot becoming target fixated, it's the whole flight. While it's reasonable that the AI make mistakes, after all that 's only human, but if the silly byggers all make the same mistakes all the time they shouldn't be flying high-powered, heavily armed aircraft.

/Stig

[Lagarto]

Where the angry attitude is coming from? For years and years anyone reporting a bug was immediately attacked by a bunch of fans blindly infatuated with this game. Their 'noble' efforts to 'defend' the game were actually counterproductive because they slowed down its development. You can't fix or improve anything if you think everything is just perfect.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Stig1207

Agree with Ice, no reason not to keep this discussion civil.

That being said, I also think that Lagarto has a good case in all calling this AI behavior a bug. After all, it's not one AI pilot becoming target fixated, it's the whole flight. While it's reasonable that the AI make mistakes, after all that 's only human, but if the silly byggers all make the same mistakes all the time they shouldn't be flying high-powered, heavily armed aircraft.

/Stig

Absolutely right Stig. I even suggested that some sort of update to how it works so that some AI do become fixated while others are smarter or more disciplined. The AI could roll some kind of percentage probability for being fixated depending on skill level.

It's insane that Ace AI would do the same as a rookie.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

I don't know if this has been asked but do the AI black out? If so how come I will be going in a dive to follow an AI.. we are not closing.. in fact sometimes he is pulling away... he turns .. I turn.. I black out... he zooms up .. gets on my 6 and nails me.. Do they black out?

They don't have classic blackout, they have limited amount of G's they can pull instead. That works well enough in most situations. I logged their G's during fights on couple occasions and they were within reasonable margins. In general, I have lot more problems to make AI do the things I can do than to limit them in what they can do.

Originally Posted by SPAD-1949

And all over the versions, carburator fed enemy planes can dip and dive like a boss, dont shred to pieces in long high speed dives and climb like a pro.

They are not exceeding dive limits so there is no reason for them to lose aircraft's parts.

Originally Posted by IceFire

I think the most common thing that happens both against the AI and against other humans is we get placed in a situation where we think we're pulling the same turn but, in an effort to lead the target, we're actually pulling a tighter turn and more G forces.

True in most situations. Most players believe that they are good while in reality not more than 5% of the players knows what they are doing.

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Excellent news.. I missed this before my last post.. FC.. those were some interesting tidbits about how to control the AI better.. are there any more things like that that might be helpful in getting us to better control the AI?

As a flight Leader you will be able to send commands to Wingman, Second Section and whole flight. Assigning target aircraft for them should work better than now. You will be able to Abort mission from any position in flight. You will be able to call contacts from any position in flight too, of course, you will not be able to order attacks if you are not the Leader.

I will say one thing that really makes controlling the AI an entirely different ball game... that is VAC (Voice Activated Command).

VAC type of control is the best solution but you still need solid and practical "silent" system because not everybody is in position to use voice during playing.

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Could you possibly stop AI from engaging enemy aircraft with dead engine?

In theory they should not attack planes that are not capable of combat but I guess that there is a loophole somewhere.

Anyway, they were supposed to defend their own base, engage the bombers, and not to waste ammunition on a plane which was about to ditch. In such situations they're useless (I was the lowest rank, so I couldn't give them any orders).

If they are supposed to attack specific target that have to be set in mission. Without that they will attack first target of appropriate type. I'll try to add target type preference to FMB in 4.13, it's to late to do it for 4.12.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Where the angry attitude is coming from? For years and years anyone reporting a bug was immediately attacked by a bunch of fans blindly infatuated with this game. Their 'noble' efforts to 'defend' the game were actually counterproductive because they slowed down its development. You can't fix or improve anything if you think everything is just perfect.

This is entirely up to you then. I don't feel that I jumped on you but I did ask for you to think about the request. I even agreed with you that a change could be made but with a little more subtlety. Yet, you've continued to be hostile. I'll take it in stride.

I'm going to keep on challenging and making my own suggestions but please do not mistake it for any attitude on my part. This should and can be a civil discussion where an idea is formed, challenged, and forged into something constructive.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by FC99

They don't have classic blackout, they have limited amount of G's they can pull instead. That works well enough in most situations. I logged their G's during fights on couple occasions and they were within reasonable margins. In general, I have lot more problems to make AI do the things I can do than to limit them in what they can do.


They are not exceeding dive limits so there is no reason for them to lose aircraft's parts.

True in most situations. Most players believe that they are good while in reality not more than 5% of the players knows what they are doing.

As a flight Leader you will be able to send commands to Wingman, Second Section and whole flight. Assigning target aircraft for them should work better than now. You will be able to Abort mission from any position in flight. You will be able to call contacts from any position in flight too, of course, you will not be able to order attacks if you are not the Leader.


VAC type of control is the best solution but you still need solid and practical "silent" system because not everybody is in position to use voice during playing.

In theory they should not attack planes that are not capable of combat but I guess that there is a loophole somewhere.


If they are supposed to attack specific target that have to be set in mission. Without that they will attack first target of appropriate type. I'll try to add target type preference to FMB in 4.13, it's to late to do it for 4.12.

Type preference sounds interesting. Would they be waypoint controllable or hard coded? Both? Not a fully formed idea in my head but I'm curious.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Type preference sounds interesting. Would they be waypoint controllable or hard coded? Both? Not a fully formed idea in my head but I'm curious.

I was thinking about WP target preference.

[rollnloop]

Originally Posted by FC99

What about second section, what should be default behavior of No 3 in flight(No 4 will provide cover for him)

I suggest by default, 2nd pair covers lead's pair from a few hundred meters away (higher alt better).

If lead's pair engaged by any forward firing aircraft (not by rear gunners), 2nd pair engages this aircraft and attacks it until it goes down or flees more than 5km from lead's pair, then goes back to "cover lead's pair" mode. Lead can recall 2nd pair back via "cover me" command any time.


If intruscted to attack, 2nd pair goes after own target.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Stig1207

Agree with Ice, no reason not to keep this discussion civil.
That being said, I also think that Lagarto has a good case in all calling this AI behavior a bug. After all, it's not one AI pilot becoming target fixated, it's the whole flight. While it's reasonable that the AI make mistakes, after all that 's only human, but if the silly byggers all make the same mistakes all the time they shouldn't be flying high-powered, heavily armed aircraft.
/Stig

Yes... and (I know I know.. I have beaten this drum nearly to death) when it is your flight that is abandoning you to chase down that wounded/dieing bandit it is particularly frustrating. I look forward to 4.12 ad whatever AI updates are coming..