4.11 - AI debugging

[SPAD-1949]

Originally Posted by Mundschenk

Thanks God I'm not the only one who is annoyed by this. A fix of that issue would be awesome!

Yeah, thats been bugging me since I got into this sim.
And all over the versions, carburator fed enemy planes can dip and dive like a boss, dont shred to pieces in long high speed dives and climb like a pro.

Dont mess with a Hurry or a Mosca when you only have a lousy Bf109E

Dont try to follow your filghtleader in an attack

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

I don't know if this has been asked but do the AI black out? If so how come I will be going in a dive to follow an AI.. we are not closing.. in fact sometimes he is pulling away... he turns .. I turn.. I black out... he zooms up .. gets on my 6 and nails me.. Do they black out?

I'm not sure but I think they do... I convinced one to pull a tighter turn then me and suddenly he nosed downwards for several seconds before recovering. That was yesterday and I noted it as really interesting behaviour. But I think an AI programmer from TD would need to confirm.

I think the most common thing that happens both against the AI and against other humans is we get placed in a situation where we think we're pulling the same turn but, in an effort to lead the target, we're actually pulling a tighter turn and more G forces. In a high speed dive a few fractions tighter than your opponent and you could be in full blackout while he could be starting to blackout but still in control. It's just a matter of physics at that point

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by FC99

AI doesn't target player specifically but I see how it could happen that they "all" go after you. There will be some changes in 4.12.

In 4.11 if you want your AI to be aggressive you have to issue "Attack" command first. So when you see enemy order "Attack" to wingmen and follow it with "CoverMe", that way Wingman will behave same as enemy AI. Another possible "problem" is how your Wingman assess the danger. That depend on skill and Rookies will let the enemy in your tail while Aces will be lot more aggressive. Anyway, some changes have been made for 4.12 already and in addition there will be more Orders options in Comms menu.

Excellent news.. I missed this before my last post.. FC.. those were some interesting tidbits about how to control the AI better.. are there any more things like that that might be helpful in getting us to better control the AI?

I will say one thing that really makes controlling the AI an entirely different ball game... that is VAC (Voice Activated Command). For those that are not familiar with it it is a program created by a community member named Shift_E and it has been out for quite a while.. I discovered it 6 years ago and after fiddling with it for a while I went and bought it. It takes a little work to get it set up right initially .. just a little.. and some people use it to control things like mirrors etc.. or more complicated sims like A-10 but for me where it really really shined was in controlling the AI. It is not free.. you can DL the trial but the cost is small.. I think I paid $15 at the time to unlock it. Now it is $18 but it is a great program and worth the $$. You can use it for other stuff as well. Unlike Voice Buddy which costs $40 last time I checked VAC is a decent price and the support can't be beat. My comms are the RCTRL .. and on my X-52 I have that button programmed on my throttle so that when I need to talk in TS I just press a button on my throttle.. for VAC I used RALT and if you take the time to program it right you can really enhance this whole simming thing as far as AI control is concerned.. and since there are more options coming it may even be more practical. Initially with my profile I had it set just for opening comms and then saying numbers to get where I wanted to be but eventually I put phrases to keystrokes.. For instance.. I had "two cover me" set as TAB+1+1 .. TAB+7 (anyone help me) could be activated by saying "help, I need help, I need help dammit,somebody get this guy off of me and NOW" .. Attack enemy fighters was "go get em boys, attack fighters and bandits! nail em". I tried to set it up so that it was almost like talking to a person but keeping it simple (by just using one phrase to open comms and 0-9) was just as doable and less work.. Unfortunately I lost all that after committing the cardinal sim of the PC simmer.. not backing up .. in a crash. I recently got my access key back (like I said the support can't be beat.. I bought VAC about 5 years ago and he still supports it.. ) and now I am trying to rebuild my profile so I can use it to command the AI but VAC does for AI commands what TIR does for viewing.. it makes it much more intuitive and you can concentrate more on flying than typing or pressing buttons..

[Lagarto]

Could you possibly stop AI from engaging enemy aircraft with dead engine?
Last night I flew with five AI Zeros a scramble mission against a bunch of SBD's escorted by some P-40s. On the first pass I hit a P-40 and its engine froze. It was no longer a threat, so I looked for another target. A moment later I noticed that the remaining five Zeros were all busy taking pot shots at the P-40 with dead engine! Since they're no good at flying low and slow, two of them crashed. Anyway, they were supposed to defend their own base, engage the bombers, and not to waste ammunition on a plane which was about to ditch. In such situations they're useless (I was the lowest rank, so I couldn't give them any orders). Of course I got no credit for that P-40 because some AI vulture managed to put a bullet or two into it just before it crashed.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Could you possibly stop AI from engaging enemy aircraft with dead engine?
Last night I flew with five AI Zeros a scramble mission against a bunch of SBD's escorted by some P-40s. On the first pass I hit a P-40 and its engine froze. It was no longer a threat, so I looked for another target. A moment later I noticed that the remaining five Zeros were all busy taking pot shots at the P-40 with dead engine! Since they're no good at flying low and slow, two of them crashed. Anyway, they were supposed to defend their own base, engage the bombers, and not to waste ammunition on a plane which was about to ditch. In such situations they're useless (I was the lowest rank, so I couldn't give them any orders). Of course I got no credit for that P-40 because some AI vulture managed to put a bullet or two into it just before it crashed.

One could argue that this is working as designed... human players online certainly do this and it's not impossible to imagine pilots, caught up in the heat of battle, would also do the very same thing and make the same mistakes.

It is a bit odd as the AI will sometimes break off from a stricken plane but if it's under control, even without an engine, they will continue to attack it anyways.

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

I don't know if this has been asked but do the AI black out? If so how come I will be going in a dive to follow an AI.. we are not closing.. in fact sometimes he is pulling away... he turns .. I turn.. I black out... he zooms up .. gets on my 6 and nails me.. Do they black out?

It seems like they do. I've had countless AI fly into the ground (flying over a flat plain) , so much so it starts to get annoying.
BUT - the problem seems that the AI can really do these incredible acrobatic feats and not black out, yet on some gentle turns, go making big holes in the ground.

It seems the AI has been programmed in reverse where I actually see the AI a/c literally rotating along the wing axis at high speed (which is a recipe for instant black out, besides losing a wing).. yet all is OK ?
It is possible that the AI are not programmed with the same FM as the player. From watching tracks, they really do some impossible physics which can only be explained by punching in numbers into the AI's so called FM.

Maybe a good test would be to place a G-Meter output on the screen for each aircraft - this would shake the hornets nest...

[Lagarto]

Originally Posted by IceFire

One could argue that this is working as designed... human players online certainly do this and it's not impossible to imagine pilots, caught up in the heat of battle, would also do the very same thing and make the same mistakes.

You and your 'explanations'... Try to think in terms of real, wartime pilots defending their base, tearing through a formation of bombers just to scatter them and make them jettison bombs (that's what they should and would do), not a bunch of online jockeys desperately trying to score points.

[K_Freddie]

Well, think of it this way.

A fighter escort will give an attacker very little chance of a second bomber attack, and this seemed the case over England as well as France/Germany.
The attacking fighter is now faced with another fighter, which he has to destroy in order to carry on. If he lets the escorting fighter get away, it'll be back the next day... so destroy it (and pilot) now, by any means possible. with attrition the fighters, or pilot abilty next time will be lower, then one would be free to hammer the bombers - This I would say is the reality.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

You and your 'explanations'... Try to think in terms of real, wartime pilots defending their base, tearing through a formation of bombers just to scatter them and make them jettison bombs (that's what they should and would do), not a bunch of online jockeys desperately trying to score points.

Me and my explanations? Ohhhkay. Not sure where I've offended but, sorry? I'm just asking to think about this and offer an alternative perspective.

Humans are humans no matter what. So online jockeys aren't really all that different from other humans. No fear of death but still the same propensity towards target fixation.

Rather than this being a bug it can be considerd a feature. You're not wrong in asking for some changes to this behavior. Certrainly some pilots would be more disciplined. So, instead of a grand change, how about building in some variability? Rookie pilots could have a higher chance of becoming target fixated and firing on aircraft that are already stricken. Ace pilots would have far less of a chance or no chance at all depending on the programming. Lots of options.

[Lagarto]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Rather than this being a bug it can be considerd a feature.

Now, that's classic I've been hearing it for some ten years, initially from Oleg himself, then from his devoted followers, for some reason called 'fan boys', as you might remember. Almost every bug can be 'considered a feature' with a bit of imagination. Why then fix them and make this sim better? Isn't it easier to imagine and 'explain'?