So, about that little red light...

[Rama]

Originally Posted by zapatista

completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen.

you dont seem to understand how modern video display technology works

I do understand it much better than YOU seems to do.... (and IRL I'm an expert in digital photogrammetry and numerical aerial photography cameras... so such things like FOV are part of my everyday job).

Let's take my 16/9 22" LCD monitor. Horizontal half-size is equal to: ((16*22)/sqrt(16^2+9^2))/2 = (352/18.36)/2 = 19.17/2 = 9.58"
Size to the screen for a FOV of 30° is so:
Dist = 9.58/tgt(30°/2) = 35.7" (or around 90 cm... which is approximatively the distance from my eyes to the monitor... )

This proove that if you sit at a normal distance to the screen (I can do the same math for any kind of monitor size and standard viewing distance to them), the FOV you have is 30°
So 30° FOV (maximum zoom) is the view you should use in order to have a correct geometrical point of view through your screen.

If you use a 90° FOV (standard "non-zoomed" view of IL2), then you should have your eyes at:
9.58/tgt(90°/2) = 9.58" = 24cm to your screen
THAT would badly hurt your vision...

I didn't read the rest of your lengtly post... simple geometry is enough to show how much you're wrong in your first sentences.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Rama

and IRL I'm an expert in digital photogrammetry and numerical aerial photography cameras... so such things like FOV are part of my everyday job

you have a high opinion in yourself but dont seem to be able to use basic logic,simple reasoning and common sense. you'r also confusing yourself with all the little numbers you are quoting and dont understand the context.

Originally Posted by Rama

Let's take my 16/9 22" LCD monitor. Horizontal half-size is equal to: ((16*22)/sqrt(16^2+9^2))/2 = (352/18.36)/2 = 19.17/2 = 9.58"
Size to the screen for a FOV of 30° is so:
Dist = 9.58/tgt(30°/2) = 35.7" (or around 90 cm... which is approximatively the distance from my eyes to the monitor... )

all you have just done is calculate what distance you need to sit from your 22' monitor so it is equivalent to a 30 FoV, nothing more. that doesnt mean 30 FoV is "normal" to use in il2.

Originally Posted by Rama

This proove that if you sit at a normal distance to the screen (I can do the same math for any kind of monitor size and standard viewing distance to them), the FOV you have is 30°

no that doesnt prove anything, and isnt relevant to anybody else using il2, all it does is tell us how far rama sits from his monitor.

and i dont believe you in that regard either, it is not normal for the average pc user to sit about 1 meter from a 22' monitor while gaming or using a flightsim, and you couldnt either read normal text in windows like that, and you are sitting to far from the screen to see normal detail in video and gfx images during other pc use.

what i suspect you are doing by claiming to set the 30 FoV and use il2 in that manner is "cheating", because you might be setting that 30 FoV and then additionally sit much closer then 1 meter to the screen so there is an additional magnification factor in the objects you look at in-game (the linear size of the objects will now look larger to you). but you cant fly like that and still claim to use the sim correctly, so your argument is mute.

a ballpark normal viewing distance from an lcd monitor with 0.25/0.30 mm pixels is about 50 or 60 cm (as was explained in detail in an earlier post here).
- only users with extremely large lcd monitors will sit a bit further away, for ex with a 32 or 37' westinghouse pc monitor might the user sit about 1 meter away (note those still use 1920 x 1200 resolution, so the pixels will be extremely large at about 0.50 mm and if you sit to close it looks very blocky
- even those that use a 30' lcd pc monitor will usually sit at similar distance, because the pixels on it are similar to a 20' monitor, and text size will therefore be the same (the 30' user just gets a much bigger desktop)

Originally Posted by Rama

So 30° FOV (maximum zoom) is the view you should use in order to have a correct geometrical point of view through your screen.

i dont think you will find a single other il2 user with a 22' monitor that sits about 1 meter from his screen, so by your own logic all those other users will see things incorrectly and objects will be shrunk, since they will be using a wider FoV and sit closer to their monitors.

Originally Posted by Rama

I didn't read the rest of your lengtly post... simple geometry is enough to show how much you're wrong in your first sentences.

sure, i believe you

and of course, you are trying to have a meaningful discussion while pretending not to read what others say, but still claim only you is right eh

[Rama]

Originally Posted by zapatista

you have a high opinion in yourself

Tellin what you I in real life is "having a high opinion of myself"....
You like to fill your post with various insinuations, accusations and other irrelevant comments.
I stand on a clean conversation... please do the same...(or you will have the pleasure to have me not responding.... but maybe that's what you're searching....)

to be able to use basic logic

There's nothing more logic than mathematic (geometry).

Instead of calculating the FOV for YOUR screen size and your eyes distance to the screen, you prefer to talk about dozen of stuff except of what's relevant...
In any case I proved that what your first answer "completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen" IS completely wrong with a geometrical calculation.

all you have just done is calculate what distance you need to sit from your 22' monitor so it is equivalent to a 30 FoV

Exactly.... and do the calculation yourself for your monitor size, and you will be surprised to see how close the result will be from the real distance fromt the eyes to the screen.

and i dont believe you in that regard either, it is not normal for the average pc user to sit about 1 meter from a 22' monitor while gaming or using a flightsim, and you couldnt either read normal text in windows like that, and you are sitting to far from the screen to see normal detail in video and gfx images during other pc use

So you're calling me a liar.... I just measured it with a ruban meter... and the distance is 85cm (pretty close to 90, isn't it ? ).... and I have no problems at all with reading normal text in windows nor to see normal details during other PC use.
Maybe YOU should try to measure your eyes distance to the screen.... you'll probably be surprised....

normal viewing distance from an lcd monitor .../... is about 50 or 60 cm

Supposing it's true (which I don't believe... 50 cm to a 22" is quite close and not very healthy for the eyes...), then according FOV would be 43° for 60 cm and 51° for 50 cm, both of them (45° and 50° in game) beiing zoomed FOV in IL2, "standard view" being 60° FOV.

Of course some may use these if they want... something the software can't guess for them (there's absolutly no way for the game software to know at which distance you like to sit from the screen....
What I know is that at a distance to the screen corresponding to a 30° FOV, I've no problem to spot planes/tanks/trucks on the field.... something which is much harder to do IRL than in the game.

try it for yourself, sit at a normal distance (say 60 or 50 cm) from your 22' lcd, set the il2 in-game FoV to the correct setting for you, then fly at 1500 meters over a map that has some single tanks or trucks place in a field, a small collum of trucks on a road, or a single aircraft placed on a grassy strip. you will NOT be able to spot them or track them.

Allready did... no problems for me. Even at higher altitudes than 1500m (in game).

then the next time you are in a real aircraft at about 1500 meters, look down if you can see a tractor in a field, cars/small-trucks on the road, or individual aircraft placed at an airfield

I allready answered this... and I invite you for a fligh on the area I usually fly over (on a sunny day). You will be the passenger, and so will have plenty of time to spot with your perfect vision whatever that may proove I'm wrong.... I'm living South-East France, in Toulouse... I even would be happy to accomodate you freely at my home during a few days (but you'll have to pay for your travel ticket from your living place to mine and back....)

a simple solution for il2 would be to paint/color/shape the 2e and 3e LoD models so they stand out more when viewed against a background terrain

So painting the target... in red for them to be more visible....Mmmmm.... so nice and so immersive...
why not adding some icons and labels if you want to follow this way .

[JG52Uther]

Actually the thread is about the fuel light in the cockpit.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

Actually the thread is about the fuel light in the cockpit.

i'd say the OP disagrees with you

Originally Posted by 99th_Flyby

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2? How about SoW_BoB? Sorry I can't test this in IL2 at the moment. I'm using the wife's pc until I build a new rig. Maybe someone can make a track spotting (or not) a climbing flight of Hurricanes over the channel, and post it to Youtube? Typically, the perspective from the Emil would be "up-Sun" from the Hurricanes!
Flyby out

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Rama

Instead of calculating the FOV for YOUR screen size and your eyes distance to the screen, you prefer to talk about dozen of stuff except of what's relevant...

nope, i know exactly what my screen size and correct FoV is for my setup

the problem i have with what you are saying is that you are pretending there is a "special rama way" to use an lcd monitor, and there isnt. i have given you the detailed reason why monitors with various display technology have a correct viewing distance to use them, and you are pretending it doesnt apply to you.

Originally Posted by Rama

So you're calling me a liar.... I just measured it with a ruban meter... and the distance is 85cm (pretty close to 90, isn't it ? ).... and I have no problems at all with reading normal text in windows nor to see normal details during other PC use.

nope i dont believe anybody with a 22' lcd will sit at about 1 meter from it for normal day to day office use, and can still see text with normal font size settings and not produce eye strain, or that you will sit at that distance for gaming. if you do, then you are the odd one out, just dont try and tell me it is normal, cause it aint.

btw, there is now creep in your measurements, if you now tell me you are sitting at 85 cm then objects will have enlarged 5% or more from the 90+ cm you quoted before (because your foV is still 30 and you are sitting 5% closer to the screen).

what i think you are doing this just for the sake of arguing here and pretending visibility in il2 is correct, but in fact you have set your monitor at 30 FoV but then sit at 1/2 the "correct" 90 cm viewing distance for it, so objects magnify another 50% on top of their already increased size displayed at 30 FoV. with that you have then created a 4x magnification and are now trying to tell me you can see things in il2 like you do in real life.

Originally Posted by Rama

Supposing it's true (which I don't believe... 50 cm to a 22" is quite close and not very healthy for the eyes...), then according FOV would be 43° for 60 cm and 51° for 50 cm, both of them (45° and 50° in game) beiing zoomed FOV in IL2, "standard view" being 60° FOV.

not quite, the "normal" default view in il2 is 70 i believe, but the only thing that matters is that this normal view is only "normal" if you have a 30' lcd and sit at the correct viewing distance for that type of lcd display technology.

just try it for your monitor, sit at the correct 50 or 60 cm from it, set your FoV accordingly, and compare it to the visibility you would have in real life for objects seen at 1500 meters distance, the problem in il2 is very obvious.

you seem to think i made up the issue of "correct viewing distances" for various resolutions, screen sizes, and display technology. there is 100's of articles written on that topic, and the ballpark figures are very straightforward to understand for lcd's. for you to pretend it is normal to sit at about 1 meter from a 22' lcd pc monitor is..., well, odd.

Originally Posted by Rama

Of course some may use these if they want... something the software can't guess for them (there's absolutly no way for the game software to know at which distance you like to sit from the screen....

the game could know it if during original installation it asks you what size monitor you have and what resolution you use, some games already do that (but they ask it together with checking cpu power and ram, so they set the level of detail in game your pc can cope with). for il2/BoB it could then set the "correct" FoV as default, and you have 2 snap views for increased peripheral vision or zoom effects. after that users can still edit the options like they do for other settings to adjust it further to their personal liking.

Originally Posted by Rama

So painting the target... in red for them to be more visible....Mmmmm.... so nice and so immersive...

who said anything about painting objects in red ? all that is need is to make them either darker, lighter, or a bit more reflective for ex, i am sure some grafix artist could come up with some simple suggestions.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by zapatista

nope, i know exactly what my screen size and correct FoV is for my setup

Then I'm sorry for your eyes health...

nope i dont believe .../...

The fact you don't believe don't make it less true.... as I invited you to verify your saying IRL (offering you free accomodation and the flight), you may also verify with your own meter the distance from my eyes to the screen on my PC setting.

btw, there is now creep in your measurements, if you now tell me you are sitting at 85 cm then objects will have enlarged 5% or more from the 90+ cm you quoted before (because your foV is still 30 and you are sitting 5% closer to the screen).

funny....
Who do you say is doing this "just for the sake of arguing" ???

Anyway... you have a formal invitation so you can confront both IRL and in the game your sayings to mine... it's just up to you...

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Rama

The fact you don't believe don't make it less true.... as I invited you to verify your saying IRL (offering you free accomodation and the flight), you may also verify with your own meter the distance from my eyes to the screen on my PC setting.

since you bought the pc and monitor and use it in the privacy of your own home, you can use it whatever way you like, but it is not the normal or intended viewing distance for a 22' lcd so you cant generalize that a 1 meter viewing distance is "normal" for other il2 users with a 22' lcd screen.

what i did suggest you'd try, is in il2 set your FoV correctly while you sit at the "normal" viewing distance that this type of monitor is intended to be used at (and similar to what most other lcd users would be viewing it from), say roughly 50 or 60 cm distance between your eyes and the screen, and then compare it to what you see in real life.

presuming your monitor is correctly calibrated, you will find that il2 objects (trucks/tanks/planes) when seen at 1500 meters distance against the textures of a ground terrain background, are nearly impossible to locate, identify or track, compared to what you can see in real life with the naked eye from the same distance (and as is extensively documented from historical accounts by pilots in ww2).

the main reason for this problem in il2, and some other games, is that in il2 the 2e and 3e LoD models might look pretty when looked at full screen in a grafix editor, but when they are shrunk down to the correct sizes the same object will be seen at from 1000 or 1500 meters, then the flat 2D object they are on a pc monitor will cause them to blend in WAY to much with the background terrain textures.

and no, i dont believe that you are flying il2 while having it set to 30 FoV most of the time, the tunnel vision it creates is to disorienting to fly like that, you cant keep track of the other planes in your flight, or your position on the map, the ground target you are hunting for, or the enemy planes in your vicinity. whatever monitor people are using in il2, the expectation would be that you then set the "correct FoV" for your screensize, and then see the il2 in-game objects in the il2 virtual world exactly as you would see them in real life (since this is claimed to be a simulator, not arcade game). you can then briefly snap to a wider or more narrow FoV when so needed, but that would only be for brief moments.

Originally Posted by Rama

funny....
Who do you say is doing this "just for the sake of arguing" ???

there are 3 things that happen when you set your il2 FoV to an artificially enlarged view setting like you are doing, and are using a 30 FoV and then also have your eyes closer to the monitor then the "correct" 90 cm distance,
- first the il2 in game objects will be seen as much larger on screen (because your zoom factor is larger at 30 then at 45 or 50 FoV and those objects will be a physically bigger )
- secondly, if your normal viewing distance should be 91 cm for a 30 FoV on a 22' lcd, and you are then really viewing those il2 in-game objects at 50% the screen distance you are quoting (which i think you are doing here just for the sake of arguing that visibility in il2 is correct), this closer screen viewing distance will then magnify those objects 2x in size compared to what the rest of us see. so yes, you even leaning a 10cm closer then the 91cm you quoted will significantly increase object size and visibility.
- thirdly, changing the FoV setting (using a smaller setting then "normal" for your screen size) will also affect the LoD model transition distances, so you might well be looking at a much larger object like a 2e LoD model while other il2 users here might see a much less detailed and smaller 3e LoD model for ex, or you might be looking at a 3e LoD model and other players might be seeing a "dot" (we'd need to know the exact transition distances for LoD models, and LoD to dot transition distances, to see if that is applicable here for the 1500m objects)

Originally Posted by Rama

Anyway... you have a formal invitation so you can confront both IRL and in the game your sayings to mine... it's just up to you...

thx for the invitation, at the moment i think it would be much more simple for you to try and sit at the more correct closer distance from your monitor, set the correct larger FoV in il2, and then while flying at 1500 meters in il2 (being aware of keeping your eye to screen distance constant), compare how easy/hard it is to spot those trucks/tanks/planes on the ground compared to real life.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by zapatista

while flying at 1500 meters in il2 (being aware of keeping your eye to screen distance constant), compare how easy/hard it is to spot those trucks/tanks/planes on the ground compared to real life.

As I allready said, I've allready done this.
Stopping the argument there. If you want to know, you have my invitation.