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| IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator. |
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#1
07-20-2008, 04:24 AM
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you dont seem to understand how modern video display technology works, or how to use it correctly according to the manufacturers specifications (and complying to health and safety regulations to protect your eye sight). to keep things simple for now, lets presume we are all using lcd pc monitors on our computer desks, since that is now the case for most gamers in developed countries. (projector displays, large plasma tv's, and CRT monitors have somewhat different characteristics and different rules apply, hence they are best viewed from different distances) for modern pc lcd monitors, there is basically only one "correct viewing distance" ! that distance is determined by the font size of the OS/software, the size of the pixels the display uses, and the display resolution. for reading text default font sizes are similar across OS's and are roughly 30% larger then what you see in print (for normal printed text in books and literature). because the monitor is further from your eyes, to your brain the viewing size of the text fonts remains similar. there can also be a slight difference in pixel sizes for different monitor which can slightly change this for normal desktop use, but at 0.05 mm difference per pixel for simplicity sake we'll skip that part for now to (roughly varying btw 0.25 and 0.30 mm). for viewing video or grafix the best viewing distance is roughly similar to that, because if you sit to close the image pixilates and becomes blocky ( you can see the individual pixel blocks and the lines between them), and if you sit to far away you loose the detail of the image . the ball park correct viewing distance for lcd pc monitors is roughly 60 cm, with about a 10 cm variation depending on personal preference or accuracy of vision. the resolution the display is set to also matters, with high definition video using smaller pixel blocks so you can sit a little closer, and for lower resolution video users having to sit a little further away (so the displayed video "block" blend in together more). but for now we'll presume the lcd pc monitors we are using are set at their native resolution, and since pixel sizes in those lcd monitors are fairly constant, those with higher resolution monitors basically have larger monitors with more pixels on the larger display surface, but sit at similar distances. so to keep a long story short, lcd pc monitors DO have a "correct viewing distance", and a small monitor will give you a smaller field of view in il2, and a larger (wider) monitor will give you a wider Field of View. therefore whatever lcd monitor size you have on your desk, there will only be ONE correct FoV setting in il2 that will show you in game objects (trucks, planes, buildings, etc..) at their correct sizes (it is easy to calculate that "correct FoV setting" for your monitor size with a simple formula). if you set a more narrow field of view in il2 on that same monitor you now get increased tunnel vision and those objects you look at will be artificially magnified, and if you set a wider field of view your peripheral vision might increase but the objects will now shrink in size (which means that to your visual cortex they will look further away). there are some incorrect sizes modeled for some in game objects in il2, like some of the buildings, but we'll skip that part for now to. since il2 is promoting itself as a "simulation" and not an arcade game, you have to assume that what we see on our monitors in the game will be intended to SIMULATE what you'd see from a ww2 cockpit in real life, which means that 90% of the time most of us would fly with the "correct FoV" for our monitor size (so we can see all in-game objects correctly displayed in their right sizes and relative size ratios). since we have the limitation of sitting in our living rooms behind a computer monitor, there are some features added to the game to reduce those limitations, so you can briefly switch to a wider FoV to increase your situational awareness in a dogfight for ex, or you can briefly zoom into an object to get a more detailed view (aiming at a specific part of a slow moving bomber for ex), but you dont use either of those views to permanently fly in ! if you did that it would be very disorienting, either you have constant tunnel vision on a narrow 30 FoV, or on the 90 FoV setting your wider peripheral vission is being compressed into a display surface that is to small and everything therefore reduces in size and you are now looking at midgets in a lilyputter world and hunt for scale model toy aircraft in the virtual sky . neither of those views is one you'd want to fly in constantly for those exact reasons. Quote:
lets do some basic figures, if for ex you are using a 24' lcd and are sitting at roughly 60 cm from it, then your normal "correct FoV" setting should be 46.9 in il2 (46.9 degrees of your visual field is now occupied by the 52 cm wide screen in front of you, placed at 60 cm). you'd therefore have to chose either the 45 or 50 FoV to see objects in their correct sizes in this sim, both of which are significantly larger then the 30 you are claiming is the right setting. so if you claim now that you can only see objects correctly in il2 with a 30 FoV setting, compared to your real life experience, then either everything in il2 is modeled to small, or when using the right "correct FoV" setting (45 or 50) for your monitor size you'd have to agree that objects are harder to see from the same distance compared to real life ! you cant have it both ways, its one or the other. Quote:
so this time set your monitor to the correct view setting (45 or 50 for a 24' for ex), then fly at 1500 meters altitude in il2 and observe how well you can see a tank in a field, trucks on a road, or an aircraft parked on a grass strip etc.. then compare this to looking down from a real aircraft at 1500 m at various similar objects in the real world, there is a MAJOR difference to what you can see in real life compared to the difficulties we have in il2 (for this i am presuming you have normal 20/20 vision). and as another example why dont you try and use that 30 FoV you claim is "normal" and do some formation flying in il2, its impossible. try and keep 100 m separation to the lead aircraft on your 10 or 2 o'clock position for ex, with a 30 FoV setting your vision is jumping about so much its impossible to keep an eye on him. similarly if you mainly use the 30 FoV for combat flying and have to scan the skies around you, its impossible because the sky sections you see are so small and you are completely vulnerable. Last edited by zapatista; 07-20-2008 at 05:00 AM. 
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#2
07-20-2008, 12:37 PM
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Let's take my 16/9 22" LCD monitor. Horizontal half-size is equal to: ((16*22)/sqrt(16^2+9^2))/2 = (352/18.36)/2 = 19.17/2 = 9.58" Size to the screen for a FOV of 30° is so: Dist = 9.58/tgt(30°/2) = 35.7" (or around 90 cm... which is approximatively the distance from my eyes to the monitor... ) This proove that if you sit at a normal distance to the screen (I can do the same math for any kind of monitor size and standard viewing distance to them), the FOV you have is 30° So 30° FOV (maximum zoom) is the view you should use in order to have a correct geometrical point of view through your screen. If you use a 90° FOV (standard "non-zoomed" view of IL2), then you should have your eyes at: 9.58/tgt(90°/2) = 9.58" = 24cm to your screen THAT would badly hurt your vision... I didn't read the rest of your lengtly post... simple geometry is enough to show how much you're wrong in your first sentences.
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#3
07-22-2008, 03:48 AM
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and i dont believe you in that regard either, it is not normal for the average pc user to sit about 1 meter from a 22' monitor while gaming or using a flightsim, and you couldnt either read normal text in windows like that, and you are sitting to far from the screen to see normal detail in video and gfx images during other pc use. what i suspect you are doing by claiming to set the 30 FoV and use il2 in that manner is "cheating", because you might be setting that 30 FoV and then additionally sit much closer then 1 meter to the screen so there is an additional magnification factor in the objects you look at in-game (the linear size of the objects will now look larger to you). but you cant fly like that and still claim to use the sim correctly, so your argument is mute. a ballpark normal viewing distance from an lcd monitor with 0.25/0.30 mm pixels is about 50 or 60 cm (as was explained in detail in an earlier post here). - only users with extremely large lcd monitors will sit a bit further away, for ex with a 32 or 37' westinghouse pc monitor might the user sit about 1 meter away (note those still use 1920 x 1200 resolution, so the pixels will be extremely large at about 0.50 mm and if you sit to close it looks very blocky - even those that use a 30' lcd pc monitor will usually sit at similar distance, because the pixels on it are similar to a 20' monitor, and text size will therefore be the same (the 30' user just gets a much bigger desktop) Quote:
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 and of course, you are trying to have a meaningful discussion while pretending not to read what others say, but still claim only you is right eh Last edited by zapatista; 07-22-2008 at 04:22 AM.
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#4
07-22-2008, 11:43 AM
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 You like to fill your post with various insinuations, accusations and other irrelevant comments. I stand on a clean conversation... please do the same...(or you will have the pleasure to have me not responding.... but maybe that's what you're searching....) Quote:
Instead of calculating the FOV for YOUR screen size and your eyes distance to the screen, you prefer to talk about dozen of stuff except of what's relevant... In any case I proved that what your first answer "completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen" IS completely wrong with a geometrical calculation. Quote:
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).... and I have no problems at all with reading normal text in windows nor to see normal details during other PC use.Maybe YOU should try to measure your eyes distance to the screen.... you'll probably be surprised.... Quote:
Of course some may use these if they want... something the software can't guess for them (there's absolutly no way for the game software to know at which distance you like to sit from the screen.... What I know is that at a distance to the screen corresponding to a 30° FOV, I've no problem to spot planes/tanks/trucks on the field.... something which is much harder to do IRL than in the game. Quote:
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why not adding some icons and labels if you want to follow this way .
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#6
07-22-2008, 01:35 PM
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#7
07-22-2008, 02:47 PM
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the problem i have with what you are saying is that you are pretending there is a "special rama way" to use an lcd monitor, and there isnt. i have given you the detailed reason why monitors with various display technology have a correct viewing distance to use them, and you are pretending it doesnt apply to you. Quote:
btw, there is now creep in your measurements, if you now tell me you are sitting at 85 cm then objects will have enlarged 5% or more from the 90+ cm you quoted before (because your foV is still 30 and you are sitting 5% closer to the screen). what i think you are doing this just for the sake of arguing here and pretending visibility in il2 is correct, but in fact you have set your monitor at 30 FoV but then sit at 1/2 the "correct" 90 cm viewing distance for it, so objects magnify another 50% on top of their already increased size displayed at 30 FoV. with that you have then created a 4x magnification and are now trying to tell me you can see things in il2 like you do in real life. Quote:
just try it for your monitor, sit at the correct 50 or 60 cm from it, set your FoV accordingly, and compare it to the visibility you would have in real life for objects seen at 1500 meters distance, the problem in il2 is very obvious. you seem to think i made up the issue of "correct viewing distances" for various resolutions, screen sizes, and display technology. there is 100's of articles written on that topic, and the ballpark figures are very straightforward to understand for lcd's. for you to pretend it is normal to sit at about 1 meter from a 22' lcd pc monitor is..., well, odd. Quote:
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Last edited by zapatista; 07-22-2008 at 02:50 PM.
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#8
07-22-2008, 04:26 PM
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Who do you say is doing this "just for the sake of arguing" ??? Anyway... you have a formal invitation so you can confront both IRL and in the game your sayings to mine... it's just up to you...
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#9
07-25-2008, 04:04 AM
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what i did suggest you'd try, is in il2 set your FoV correctly while you sit at the "normal" viewing distance that this type of monitor is intended to be used at (and similar to what most other lcd users would be viewing it from), say roughly 50 or 60 cm distance between your eyes and the screen, and then compare it to what you see in real life. presuming your monitor is correctly calibrated, you will find that il2 objects (trucks/tanks/planes) when seen at 1500 meters distance against the textures of a ground terrain background, are nearly impossible to locate, identify or track, compared to what you can see in real life with the naked eye from the same distance (and as is extensively documented from historical accounts by pilots in ww2). the main reason for this problem in il2, and some other games, is that in il2 the 2e and 3e LoD models might look pretty when looked at full screen in a grafix editor, but when they are shrunk down to the correct sizes the same object will be seen at from 1000 or 1500 meters, then the flat 2D object they are on a pc monitor will cause them to blend in WAY to much with the background terrain textures. and no, i dont believe that you are flying il2 while having it set to 30 FoV most of the time, the tunnel vision it creates is to disorienting to fly like that, you cant keep track of the other planes in your flight, or your position on the map, the ground target you are hunting for, or the enemy planes in your vicinity. whatever monitor people are using in il2, the expectation would be that you then set the "correct FoV" for your screensize, and then see the il2 in-game objects in the il2 virtual world exactly as you would see them in real life (since this is claimed to be a simulator, not arcade game). you can then briefly snap to a wider or more narrow FoV when so needed, but that would only be for brief moments. Quote:
- first the il2 in game objects will be seen as much larger on screen (because your zoom factor is larger at 30 then at 45 or 50 FoV and those objects will be a physically bigger ) - secondly, if your normal viewing distance should be 91 cm for a 30 FoV on a 22' lcd, and you are then really viewing those il2 in-game objects at 50% the screen distance you are quoting (which i think you are doing here just for the sake of arguing that visibility in il2 is correct), this closer screen viewing distance will then magnify those objects 2x in size compared to what the rest of us see. so yes, you even leaning a 10cm closer then the 91cm you quoted will significantly increase object size and visibility. - thirdly, changing the FoV setting (using a smaller setting then "normal" for your screen size) will also affect the LoD model transition distances, so you might well be looking at a much larger object like a 2e LoD model while other il2 users here might see a much less detailed and smaller 3e LoD model for ex, or you might be looking at a 3e LoD model and other players might be seeing a "dot" (we'd need to know the exact transition distances for LoD models, and LoD to dot transition distances, to see if that is applicable here for the 1500m objects) Quote:
Last edited by zapatista; 07-25-2008 at 04:22 AM.
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#10
07-20-2008, 12:49 PM
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Another quick look at your post, and I saw this
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This is another example of (and perfectly illustrate) the fact that a standard monitor can't give you a peripheral vision AND respecting at the same time the object size according to the FOV. Either you have correct object size accoring you narrow field of view allowed by the narrow window of the monitor OR you have peripheral vision and reduced size of objects. You can't have both at the same time EXCEPT if you're using a semi-hemispheric screen (what you have in real prophetional simulators). As we say here, you can' own at the same time the butter, the money of the butter, the milk, the cow and the cowgirl...
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