Target visibility

[Wolf_Rider]

read the above.... go on, its easy

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

read the above.... go on, its easy

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

*EDIT (for your late entry

IF I sit at the window, I see up to 180 degrees... but a monitor isn't a real world window, where how much can seen is determined by how near or distant the person looking out it is and if I have a big big window, I can see much much more without having to be so close, such is the real world. Unfortunately though, a monitor won't display these qualities. Why? because it is no more than a projection surface

If I sit in front of a window or monitor of the same size, yes, I see up to 180 degrees, but NOT of what is outside the aircraft or on the screen. How much of my vision, most of which is occupied by the useless interior of my room/aircraft, is actually able to see what is happening outside/in the game?

Yes, if I MOVE in relation to my monitor or the window, I change HOW MUCH of my field of vision is occupied by the monitor/window, and in the aircraft, this changes my FOV OUTSIDE the window. But the FOV of the monitor does NOT change, which is where these two differ. Such is the limitation of technology.

But you forget its not about the window or the fact that you might need to change your fov if you decide to sit closer to your monitor. What this is about is this - if I sit at this distance and angle and look at a monitor of this size, how much FOV do I need to set to get a 1:1 view with a window of the same size and distance?

PLEASE tell me you at least know what answer I am looking for!


EDIT: Here are some resources from valve to help: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Field_of_View

Note the following;

The player's FOV represents the Horizontal Angular Field of View, determining the angle of a geometrical viewwedge called a Frustum, whose rectangular cross-section corresponds to the player's rectangular screen

Theoretically, an optically correct perspective can be obtained by matching the Camera's angle of view to the angle between the Player's eye and the edges of the image on his screen. Obviously this angle varies according to the actual size of the Player's screen and how far away from the screen he is actually sitting.

Do you notice how they DON'T say the correct FOV is 60 degrees, and they refer, just like me, to the size of the player's screen and how far away from it the player is?

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

If I sit in front of a window or monitor of the same size, yes, I see up to 180 degrees, but NOT of what is outside the aircraft or on the screen. How much of my vision, most of which is occupied by the useless interior of my room/aircraft, is actually able to see what is happening outside/in the game?

you see, your monitor is not your window... different physics

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Yes, if I MOVE in relation to my monitor or the window, I change HOW MUCH of my field of vision is occupied by the monitor/window,

nooo... if you move closer to your monitor, it gets bigger and if you move closer to you wnidow, you see more of the outside world through it.

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

and in the aircraft, this changes my FOV OUTSIDE the window.

No again... you change how much you see, as the restriction of the window bounds reduce

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

But the FOV of the monitor does NOT change, which is where these two differ. Such is the limitation of technology.

Insert "restriction" for "FoV" here and this is what has been said before

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

But you forget its not about the window or the fact that you might need to change your fov if you decide to sit closer to your monitor.

You might want to reconsider this bit in regard to your previous postings

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

What this is about is this - if I sit at this distance and angle and look at a monitor of this size, how much FOV do I need to set to get a 1:1 view with a window of the same size and distance?

you'll need a simpit

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

PLEASE tell me you at least know what answer I am looking for!

why keep harping, when it has been gone over and over?


https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Field_of_View
EDIT: Here are some resources from valve to help: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Field_of_View

Note the following;


Do you notice how they DON'T say the correct FOV is 60 degrees, and they refer, just like me, to the size of the player's screen and how far away from it the player is?

[/QUOTE]


they say "set to 75 degrees by default"

[irR4tiOn4L]

Notice also this formula from Valve for an 'optically correct perspective'

viewer distance = (screenwidth)/(2*tan(FOV/2))

I am practically GIVING you the answer at this point.

To allow you to use this formula, here is the general layout of my monitor/viewing distance. Note that this probably won't equal 23.5 degrees exactly, because I calculated in a much quicker and rougher way. But it'll demonstrate the point.

My monitor is approximately 100 cm away from my face. It's viewable area is 40 cm wide. This gives you all you need to solve that formula;

viewer distance = (screenwidth)/(2*tan(FOV/2))

100 cm = (40 cm) / (2*tan(FOV/2))

Solving algebraically comes up with, finally;

FOV = 22.61986494!

As you can see, according to Valve's 'optically correct perspective' formula, I would need to set my FOV to 22.6.

So what does that tell you about my problem?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

you see, your monitor is not your window... different physics

Both follow the same optical principles apart from the angles at which the light comes, which can be corrected by fresnel lenses.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

nooo... if you move closer to your monitor, it gets bigger and if you move closer to you wnidow, you see more of the outside world through it.

You do realise we are saying the same thing here?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

No again... you change how much you see, as the restriction of the window bounds reduce

Which is an increase in the field of view OUTSIDE the window!

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Insert "restriction" for "FoV" here and this is what has been said before

No I was talking about INGAME FOV there. Might have been confusing just saying 'fov', sorry.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

You might want to reconsider this bit in regard to your previous postings

No, it was correct.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

you'll need a simpit

No, i wont. I can achieve an optically correct perspective (aside from screen curvature) at ANY size screen and viewing distance. I just need to set the right FOV ingame.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

why keep harping, when it has been gone over and over?

Because you apparently don't get it.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

they say "set to 75 degrees by default"

Not for an 'optically correct perspective' they don't.

Remember that FOV in games is a TRADEOFF between WIDE angle views (that are still not as wide as in reality) and 1:1 perspective/detail, which suffers because obviously things get smaller and less detailed the wider the FOV.

Games have generally stuck with 70-90 fov for playability purposes. But this is NOT the optically correct perspective. The optically correct perspective is the one where perspective onscreen matches perspective in reality.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Notice also this formula from Valve for an 'optically correct perspective'


I am practically GIVING you the answer at this point.

To allow you to use this formula, here is the general layout of my monitor/viewing distance. Note that this probably won't equal 23.5 degrees exactly, because I calculated in a much quicker and rougher way. But it'll demonstrate the point.

My monitor is approximately 100 cm away from my face. It's viewable area is 40 cm wide. This gives you all you need to solve that formula;

viewer distance = (screenwidth)/(2*tan(FOV/2))

100 cm = (40 cm) / (2*tan(FOV/2))

Solving algebraically comes up with, finally;

FOV = 22.61986494!

As you can see, according to Valve's 'optically correct perspective' formula, I would need to set my FOV to 22.6.

So what does that tell you about my problem?

That you're flying in tunnel vision... pure and simple

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Games have generally stuck with 70-90 fov for playability purposes. But this is NOT the optically correct perspective. The optically correct perspective is the one where perspective onscreen matches perspective in reality.

http://artsygamer.com/fov-in-games/

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Then you're flying in tunnel vision... pure and simple

Do you have the answer to my problem? What is the optically correct FOV?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

http://artsygamer.com/fov-in-games/

Do you understand that video, given that you have utterly failed to grasp even the most basic problem I have presented? If not, don't link to it - do not use the knowledge of others to obfuscate the lack of your own.

Here is the answer to what was a very simple problem:



Either you were trolling, or you really need to brush up on your optics.

[Wolf_Rider]

Yes, I do understand it and just very recently saw it ie just before I posted the link...I'm sorry the "lesson" doesn't agree with you but I can understand why you are irrational though. and what it means for you, is to get some more screens.
None of that, however, changes the fact you're flying in tunnel vision with a very small FoV


and again - an edit for your edit....

Trolling no, seeing another "the dots are too small and too hard to track, so lets make them bigger" thread - yes

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Yes, I do understand it and just very recently saw it ie just before I posted the link...I'm sorry the "lesson" doesn't agree with you but I can understand why you are irrational though. and what it means for you, is to get some more screens.
None of that, however, changes the fact you're flying in tunnel vision with a very small FoV

If you understood it, then what did you THINK was the correct 1:1 perspective on a monitor 22" in diagonal at 1m from your face that occupied just 22 degrees of your entire field of vision?

More to the point, how could you HONESTLY TELL ME that 60 fov was the 1:1 optically correct perspective?

I can only conclude that you simply didn't.

That you could not answer the simplest of questions just underlines that point with a very thick line indeed.

[Wolf_Rider]

Ffs

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Ffs

I can only assume that means you just realised what I was trying to tell you all along.

In order to be able to see aircraft as easily as a real pilot, we need to try and match as closely as possible the perspective that they have on a very imperfect medium - our monitor.

The easiest and probably best way to do this is to simply switch between a wider, more standard 'gaming' field of view setting that is actually very wide, to a much more 'zoomed in' perspective, perhaps to the point of a 1:1 'optically correct' view. At this 1:1 optically correct view, we see what little is in our view, including distant aircraft, as closely as possible to the dimensions with which they appear to our eyes in reality, but we do so at the expense of situational awareness and a wide view (ie, tunnel vision).

By combining these two views and scanning while switching between them, we are able as realistically as possible scan the sky and spot distant aircraft without the aid of a much larger monitor or sitting much closer to it.

Hence why I recommend it, and posit that it is in no way cheating. And YES, some people DO have trouble seeing the dots, more so than others - it all depends on your screen size, resolution, viewing distance etc.


Here is a very useful formula for working out, according to valve, your 'optically correct perspective'.

FOV = ((((screenwidth/viewer distance)/2)tan-1)2)

By use of this formula you will be able to get the FOV, for your viewing environment, that best allows you to approximate the acuity of our eyes in a real aircraft, abeit for only a small patch of sky.

In my case this works out to roughly 22 degrees, making 30 and 70 FOV good compromise values to switch between.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Trolling no, seeing another "the dots are too small and too hard to track, so lets make them bigger" thread - yes

Trolling was the better option out of the two I had in mind.

And again, which just highlights what a douchebag you really are, I never said anything about increasing dot sizes nor do I support it.