BoB & Spitfire vs Hurricane (vs 109-ish) - an interesting viewpoint

[Letum]

Hitler said himself that he did not want to "infringe on their individuality" of native languages, but did want German the be the language of the highest authority of government.


However saying "I'm not writing this in German" isn't really about that.

[phoenix1963]

Perhaps the really interesting question is, if the Luftwaffe had continued to attack airfields and radar stations, could they have achieved good enough air superiority for an invasion (I know they didn't really have enough barges in the right places and so on, but that's not my question)?

Personally, I suspect they would have struggled. In some sense the effective loss to Fighter Command of Manston as a forward base is a partial indication of what would have happened - Fighter Command would have withdrawn to bases further inland, which would have meant some loss of air superiority over the coast, but a fair degree of invulnerability.

I wonder though if the Blenheims attacking landing craft and a beachhead would have survived though!

56RAF_phoenix

[SEE]

Just finished reading 'Hurricane - Victor of the Battle of Britain' by Leo McKinstry. Excellent read too with lots of pilot accounts, why the Hurricane was important during this phase of the war, etc.

The Hurricanes finest hour was the BoB, by 1941 it was considered obsolete by many pilots who openly loathed flying it in campaigns such as the defence of Malta.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by phoenix1963

Perhaps the really interesting question is, if the Luftwaffe had continued to attack airfields and radar stations, could they have achieved good enough air superiority for an invasion (I know they didn't really have enough barges in the right places and so on, but that's not my question)?

Personally, I suspect they would have struggled. In some sense the effective loss to Fighter Command of Manston as a forward base is a partial indication of what would have happened - Fighter Command would have withdrawn to bases further inland, which would have meant some loss of air superiority over the coast, but a fair degree of invulnerability.

I wonder though if the Blenheims attacking landing craft and a beachhead would have survived though!

56RAF_phoenix

There's been a few games that cover this question (albeit, maybe not too sophisticatedly). I think there was a Panzer General game that let you run Operation Sea Lion.

[NZtyphoon]

Interesting article: a few years ago I bought a collection of back copies of Aeroplane Monthly; in February 1994 Roland Beamont wrote an article about
the Hurricane http://www.theaviationindex.com/publ...ricane-testing in which he wrote:

"The Spitfire was about 30 mph faster at all altitudes, but its Vne was the same at 400 mph IAS - though with a significant difference. A Hurricane could be "corkscrew" dived at full bore, vertically and with full aileron (still responsive to the limit) and nothing would break....In this manœuvre there was a strong likelyhood of pulling the wings off a Spitfire....The Hurricane's gun-platform stability was much superior to the Spitfire's...whose low directional damping tended to result in "hosing" rather than precision shots." He then went on to describe a mock combat he flew against a Spitfire in which he was able to stay on the tail of the Spitfire no matter what the Spitfire pilot tried to do.

This article caused a bit of a stink prompting Spitfire test pilot Alex Henshaw to respond in September '95 http://www.theaviationindex.com/publ...pilots-defence:

First Henshaw described a typical demonstration flight at Castle Bromwich

"...The Spitfire would then continue with a series of loops and half-rolls to gain height over the airfield to between 4,000 and 5,000ft. Depending on the precise position of the aircraft in relation to the airfield, the usual procedure was to dive to 450-470 mph in front of the flight shed and then pull out and complete an upward roll to the left, one to the right and a half-roll left. This manoeuvre might be repeated or continued with a vertical dive with aileron turns...Considering how often this was demonstrated with all marks of Spitfires I am surprised that it should ever be suspected that wings might suffer structural fialure in such a situation when excessive aileron loads were used in high-speed dives. There was certainly never any fear of a Hurricane losing its wings in a similar situation, as its speed would be much lower."

"It is generally accepted that the Hurricane made a better gun platform than the Spitfire. I have never fired the guns of a Hurricane, but those top-scoring pilots with whom I have discussed the subject all say that the marvlous feature of the Spitfire was the speed at which the guns could be brought to bear on the target. Their reply to the accusation of "hosing' was that the pilot concerned was a poor shot."

"Bee quotes a number of performance figure on both the Spitfire and the Hurricane in a surprisingly loose manner. As every reputable test pilot knows literally hundreds of hours are spent endevouring to obtain the most precise performance figures for every aspect of flight, power, altitude and configuration or modification....From the Mk I Spitfire up until the Mk 21 the Vne was set by the Supermarine technical department at 470 mph IAS at a height assumed to be between 5,000 and 10,000 feet....At no time did the Supermarine test pilots reduce the Vne from 470 mph to 450 mph....If ever any doubts existed within our own test pilots as to the structural risks of diving the Spitfire they were dispelled when reports were received from combat units to the effect that some of their pilots complained of excessive engine revs when diving under extreme conditions....The basic pitch setting of the de Havilland propeller was set to give 3,000 rpm at 9lb boost on take-off, and would remain in the constant speed range up to full power and not exceed 3,000 rpm up to its Vne of 470 mph...it was decided to investigate the problem to its limits.
A standard Mk V without calibrated instruments or modifications was taken up to 37,000 ft. A maximum speed run at full power with engine revs at 3,000 was carried out for 2 minutes before peeling off with a half-roll to dive down to near ground level. Up to the Vne of 470 mph the propeller constant speeded with engine revs at 3,000, and then as the speed increased the propeller came up against its basic pitch setting stop and engine revs climbed rapidly. The ASI indicated what might be assumed to be some degree of accuracy within the normal range, but as the speed progressed beyond the these limits the needle climbed so far into the region beyond the 450 mark that it was obvious that no further notice should be taken of it. We were not certain that the machine had in fact reached its terminal velocity point...it was decide to carry out another dive with greater concentration on the rev counter....This final dive proved two factors. With the single-stage blower Merlin, the Spitfire could not be dived faster, and at 3,700-3,800 rpm in those conditions the basic pitch setting should be readjusted."

"There is never any pleasure or satisfaction in questioning the statements or opinions made by friends or associates of long standing, any more than enjoyment can be gained by denigrating an honoured old warhorse."

[WTE_Galway]

Operation Sealion, the German invasion plan, could never have succeeded in the form it took in 1940. Among other things Rhine River barges would have had trouble crossing the channel without swamping, even under ideal conditions on a fine day without being shot at.

A credible cross channel invasion plan would have taken the Germans almost as long to devise as it took the allies to prepare for D-Day.

If Barbarossa had been postponed and the Battle of Britain had continued the main effect would have been on the RAF Bomber Command and later the 8th Air Force.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Letum

I don't thin "Win","Draw" or "Loose" are appropriate terms. The Axis did not meet any of their major objectives. The British did not have any major objective other than a long term goal of gaining aerial superiority which they failed to do tactically, but gained anyway on account of German strategic decisions.

If your playing chess and one side does not have any real short term objectives other than surviving and being in a position to succeed in futures games and the other player gets up and goes off to Russia half way through, it's not really a "Draw" so much as a 'non-result'.

lol last time I argued your point I have been attacked by the (chiefly British) members of this forum, who dismissed my statement as ridiculous. I was trying to make a historical-strategic point, they marched down the road of national pride and similar propaganda.. Don't expect this place to have a historically objective view of things, this is pretty much the house of double standards

[taildraggernut]

So forcing your opponent into revising their strategic decisions(withdrawing) and surviving the immediate battle is a non-event? it's like a burglar trying to break into your house and you manage to tackle them into fleeing the scene without him stealing anything, it's a win in my book even if the burglar wansn't caught, I get the impression that these alternate views of history are straw clutching types of arguments used by Nazi appologists who are far too caught up in the glamour image of the very impressive German war machine of the time, finding it hard to swallow that they were effectively beaten by someone they percieve as inferior.

as far as the 'National pride' argument used......isn't it just a side effect of what was achieved by the sucess of that event? which as far as I can see is not much different to any other allied nations sense of pride.

Having seen the way Sternjaeger responds to difference of oppinion by someone British I have no doubt I'm about to get slammed as a union flag waving lunatic.

[DD_crash]

I am sure that Bongo will be along in a bit to put you right Stern

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by Letum

Hitler said himself that he did not want to "infringe on their individuality" of native languages, but did want German the be the language of the highest authority of government.

Yeah, but we all know ol' Adolf could be quite a kidder in his day. On occasion, he WAS known to change his mind a bit on some things......