109 elevator trim - Page 7

Varrattu · #61 04-09-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall

Could you post the reference material

I'm not sure wether this is the report Robo referred to. Please have a look at page 7, last paragraph (4.23):

ME109 handling & manoeuvrability test

I bet it were actually 6 turns in newer machines. 1/2 turn corresponds to 1 degree ...

Flanker35M · #62 04-09-2012, 06:03 PM

S!

The thing in CoD is that if we trim the aircraft then the appropriate trim know/lever/wheel moves constantly until it reaches the desired position. This in all planes. So if you need 5 revolutions to fully deflect the trim in Bf109, for example, it will move nonstop that 5 seconds as the "grabs" are not simulated. Same goes to Bf109 flaps. It takes them pretty much the same time to deploy as stated in many reports EVEN the trim wheel moves nonstop in the game.

So I think Luthier and his team have taken in account the "grabs" on trimming to achieve historical results even the visual indication tells the movement is continuous.

I tested offline on Bf109E-4. The flaps take ~25sec to deploy/retract. Trimming the full deflection ~5-6sec. The movement of the trim axis does NOT affect trim speed in ANY way, always the same. So mapping to an axis does NOT give you an advantage. As reference on Spitfire Mk.Ia the elevator trim takes about the same 5-6sec for full deflection so not much difference there.

SlipBall · #63 04-09-2012, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varrattu

I'm not sure wether this is the report Robo referred to. Please have a look at page 7, last paragraph (4.23):

ME109 handling & manoeuvrability test

I bet it were actually 6 turns in newer machines. 1/2 turn corresponds to 1 degree ...

Interesting, and yes we do not have 5+ revolution in game...and so I would think that the unknown is time, how long did it take the RL pilot to adjust per 1 degree, and is that modeled correctly in game...it may well already be, I do not have the knowledge/certainly not the experience, to speculate any further.

robtek · #64 04-09-2012, 07:10 PM

One can quite reliable assume that the wheel turned quite easily because of the gearing reduction and the large wheel.
So it is quite easy to grip a imaginary wheel beside your seat and give it 4 quarter turns.
You'll see that that takes about 1 second.
As the wheel was readily accessible and had no big resistance (assumed) that would comply with the 5 to 6 seconds measured by Flanker35.

Varrattu · #65 04-09-2012, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall

... how long did it take the RL pilot to adjust per 1 degree ...

Max. ~2 seconds, ~1/4 turn per second, as in in the video.

Osprey · #66 04-09-2012, 07:52 PM

I'm sorry Robtek, but you are saying that you can turn a 12" disc one whole rotation in 4 movements in 1 second. Yes, ONE second. Sorry, but no, don't be ridiculous.

It is the number of rotations is modeled to move through the entire trim range and a realistic speed of adjustment (as suggested in the flaps adjustment) that we are seek. Any superspeed suggestion is biased in order to gain advantage. Let's not skew the facts please, this goes for all types.

BGs_Ricky · #67 04-09-2012, 08:06 PM

And what about the g-forces the pilot and structure would suffer when going to full up nose trim very quickly in a high speed dive?

I spoke with a Typhoon pilot (Sqn. Leader D.L Stevenson) who told me that he often had to trim nose up quick to recover from high speed dives when attacking with rockets, and that made him nearly black out every time.

There's also a passage in Clostermann's The Big Show when he had to apply a lot of nose-up trim while diving like crazy from high alt chasing a 109, he lost consciousness immediately and when he came back to his senses he had a nosebleed and his radio was useless from the high g's. After landing he saw taht his plane was quite warped...

So I guess that in game whe can quicky apply full trim at high speed we shoild also feel quite some effect on the pilot and airframe.

Surely pilots would adjust trim even in a fight, but generally you apply trim in small amounts, you rarely put full trim at once except if your live is really depending on it, when pulling out of a dive for example...

robtek · #68 04-09-2012, 09:24 PM

Ok, i have to admit, 4 quarter turns a second is a bit optimistic

, but then, the video did show a really relaxed handling of 1 quarter a second.

A pilot, knowing its ride, would knew exactly how much trim to feed for the expected result and could move the wheel at least 2 to three quarters a second.

He would also exactly know how much to use and stay in a fighting condition.

SlipBall · #69 04-09-2012, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robtek

Ok, i have to admit, 4 quarter turns a second is a bit optimistic

, but then, the video did show a really relaxed handling of 1 quarter a second.

A pilot, knowing its ride, would knew exactly how much trim to feed for the expected result and could move the wheel at least 2 to three quarters a second.

He would also exactly know how much to use and stay in a fighting condition.

I think that's very true, maybe in time I will as well. It's a bit touchy right now for me, seems to require micro adjustments. The times that I have used it was for take off, and landing approach I have not used it in combat yet

Al Schlageter · #70 04-09-2012, 10:27 PM

Rounding off the numbers given to 12 degrees (11.

of trim and 6 turns (5.75) of the wheel, one gets 2 degrees of trim for every revolution of the wheel.

It takes ~4 seconds to make a full revolution of the wheel. Don't believe me, try it. Each grab is a 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004. If the pilot is in a hurry he might get 3 seconds per revolution of the wheel.