Cliffs of Dover, a Year Later

[David Hayward]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

So is every complicated application released because of these issues?

I don't think so.

The problem is that there are several definitions of "optimized".

User: It works on my machine.
Programmer: It's as efficient as possible (something that NEVER happens)
Developer: It's as efficient as our budget and release schedule make possible.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Sutts

If you were a programmer you'd know that the same routine would be used for all the characters in the game with different data plugged in. More facial expressions is not meaning more complex.

and if YOU were a programmer, you would know that the same routine is also used by all the airplanes in IL2.

The complexity of a game is given by the routines which are managing the actors, their situation in the world and their behavior in the same world, not by the numbers of actors by itself.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by adonys

Really? and you know that from.. where?

Do you have ANY idea at all what it means to code a game like Skyrim, and a game like IL2CoD? What game systems are involved in those? How a game engine is working at all? And I am not talking about the graphics/render engine, but about the game engine..

Obviously, you don't, otherwise you would have not mentioned that.

Skyrim has a HUGE world. HUGE! Mafia II has physics and damage modelling of cars and weapons. And guess what? It also has collision, on all that HUGE world of it.

Want some other examples? Assassin's Creed games.. also with HUGE worlds, hundreds of buildings, lots of details, collision, hundreds of characters, and so on. Do you know how many animations had the system they've developed for AC1? ANY idea at all? I'll tell you: 10000 animations. Now come and tell me that Il2CoD is more complex than a game that has an animations system for the main character which manages and blends them as beautifully and seamlessly as Ac does.. and I'll tell you you never worked on developing games and you don't have any idea what you're talking about!

Don't talk about thing you don't know.. just because you think, I assume from what you "see", that IL2CoD is more complex than those games, it doesn't make it so!

You can talk about those games all day long, and it is argueable in what way those are more or less complex then CloD. But these games were all released from big studios with propper financial backing and with talents from all over the world. 1C on the other hand is almost at home garage level when it comes to team size. By mere maths they will need much longer then an established studio to get their stuff done, especially when it comes to the standarts CloD wanted to achieve.
Insofar the comparison to those games does not really hold.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Air combat simulators are very complex.

Every bullet fired has plotted trajectory, every aircraft in the scenario is flying and shooting.

Everything moving has to be accounted for when you compare games.

As long as you see the movement that is all being plotted.

The graphics are doing their thing as well on every moving and non-moving object in the scenario.

And? I'd tell you about a game which was doing that WAY before IL2CoD.. and that's Battlefront's Combat Mission game (and series).

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

You can talk about those games all day long, and it is argueable in what way those are more or less complex then CloD. But these games were all released from big studios with propper financial backing and with talents from all over the world. 1C on the other hand is almost at home garage level when it comes to team size. By mere maths they will need much longer then an established studio to get their stuff done, especially when it comes to the standarts CloD wanted to achieve.
Insofar the comparison to those games does not really hold.

Well, yes and no.. Bethesda's team (Skyrim) is not so big as you would imagine. Nor Illusion Softwork's (Mafia II) one. And I've refrained from giving examples of really complex games as MMO's: WoW, Eve, WAR and SWTOR, exactly because had HUGE development teams involved in building them.

And the point was that many claimed the IL2CoD's code is the most/one of the most complex codes existent in game development industry, which is a false statement.

[robtek]

comparing apples and oranges must be really fascinating, especially if none of the participants is a developer of the software talked about, meaning everything said are guesstimates..

[philip.ed]

Originally Posted by David Hayward

This is called a Straw Man fallacy.

I never said that it was the MOST complicated, nor did I say that it has the best graphics engine. I said that "complicated software is never optimized at release." The logic in that statement is solid. I've been employed as a programmer since 1986.

You probably should not use logical fallacies when you are criticizing someone else's logic.

David, you once mentioned you worked in a hospital. If the software there is never optimized, I seriously hope I never end up where you work buddy.

[Martin77]

I ve player Skyrim and Mafia.They are great games but

1 They had the time to finish the product
2 the budget and the people involved was much greater
3 nobody knows the problems they had due the development
4 Even when stand on a hill and can see very wide you can see ~8 km
in clod you can see from west england to Belgium
5 in those ganes you walk or drive a car. The engine has more time to render as when you fly a fast plane
6 Every second you fly your plane there are processes calculated affecting your plane.

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by adonys

Skyrim has a HUGE world. HUGE! And the Editor.. the TES Creator only in itself is more complex than the whole IL2CoD!

Now you're embarrassing yourself mate, better stop before you make it any worse.

I admit there's a lot of work by graphic artists and 3D modellers in those games but in the end it's just a bunch of complex animations and scripted conversations with triggers, strung together with a bit of action to keep things interesting. Do you really believe they've modelled gun ballistics in those games? It's all smoke and mirrors.

Nowhere near the complexity of a flight sim which simulates the world and complex machines within it which interact in 3 dimensional space.

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by Martin77

I ve player Skyrim and Mafia.They are great games but

1 They had the time to finish the product
2 the budget and the people involved was much greater
3 nobody knows the problems they had due the development
4 Even when stand on a hill and can see very wide you can see ~8 km
in clod you can see from west england to Belgium
5 in those ganes you walk or drive a car. The engine has more time to render as when you fly a fast plane
6 Every second you fly your plane there are processes calculated affecting your plane.

+1

Every second you fly your plane there are processes calculated affecting your plane ...............and all the other objects visible for miles around, not just a street.