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#61
11-16-2011, 02:46 PM
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Tuckie pls note that small planes are harder to see and this is aggravated by flying at low alt such as you probably do in your Cessna 172 (152 ?).
Note also that there is no mate camo in 1940 and large portion of wings shld reflect sun glare at certain angles. 
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#62
11-16-2011, 09:03 PM
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lets say that if i had a plane 8 km from me, i wouldnt find him, becouse its hard, but when he said "im at XX place going north" and i restringed my search to that area, i would easely find him, and see what kind of plane it was, the color, how many engines etc... also the bug is rather a bug and not a feature as i udnerstood, since from 2 km to 3 km hte plaen turns invisible for some time, wich is a pain in the ass. cheers
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#63
11-20-2011, 11:17 AM
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interesting thread !
the very poor object visibility (planes, ground vehicles, etc..) in the original il2 was its single biggest downfall as a "simulator" of a ww2 pilot experience. you simply couldnt see objects at their correct distances (compared to RL and ww2 pilot accounts), resulting in us flying in a mini-bubble of situational awareness (approx 30% of normal visibility, as if the pilot we represent was severely myopic) i had high hopes this would be addressed in BoB as a matter of priority, and during the last few years before release oleg stated several times this had been addressed for BoB (there have been lengthy threads on this over the years in the main il2 forums). in pre release BoB beta video's bomber/fighter visibility seemed to have significantly improved, its worrying to hear from current users the old same visibility problem is back again in BoB/CoD and the old frustrations resurface.there is no excuse why this cant be sorted out in a modern sim/game in 2011 i expect that if a rational logical argument (based on facts, such as those presented so far in this thread) can be made to luthier, he will address this (once the immediate "playability bugs" issue is solved, which is hopefully with the next gfx engine rework to be released in the next few weeks). object visibility is a critical issue to get right, if BoB/CoD is going to make any claims to being the simulator it was intended to be. 80% of engagements rely on correct spotting, tracking and identifying of planes/vehicles AT THE RIGHT HISTORICAL VISIBILITY DISTANCES, if luthier and Co cant get this right we might as well all go home and not bother imho. solving some of the main issues isnt that complex either  Quote:
this is one of the very basic things to get right at the start of this type discussion. there are some very simple things that can be done to get correct "object visibility". and at the heart of this is the fact that to start out with, objects need to be displayed at their CORRECT SIZES ! the BoB sim is already programmed to do this (il2 had some object size discrepancies, but the same principle was valid), the problem is that most users use the incorrect FoV setting as "normal" view (because they have small monitors and want to see "more") and somehow still expect object sizes to be correct (wide view and zoom view imho are only intended to be used for brief moments to make up for the fact we sit behind a single monitor in our living rooms, rather then in a cockpit with +/- 270 degree visibility all around us, allowing us some way to partially try and represent what a real pilot could see/do). point 1: "normal view" (which in the old il2 was set to 70 FoV, which is only "normal" if you had a 30' monitor), should be set to represent the monitor size in front of you, and the number of degree's it occupies of your field of view (FoV). for my 27' lcd this is about 50 FoV, if you have a 22' it might be 35 FoV, and if you have a 30' monitor it could be 70 FoV. there is a simple formulae that allows you to calculate this for your monitor size. note: several older games already do exactly that during initial installation setup. it asks you to enter data for your monitor size and resolution, that is all that is needed. nothing needs to be "calculated" from that point, no code modification or complex new programing anything, just let the game set the right "normal" FoV for your monitor size at the start ! your wide view can still be set to 90 FoV (allowing you to snap to it during close combat to improve SA briefly), and when aiming at a specific point of an enemy target you could briefly snap to a more zoomed view to improve gun accuracy. but most of the time people would be able to fly in their correct "normal view" for their monitor sizes and see objects in their correct sizes, and have the right visibility of distant objects (some of the more distant objects will need "visibility enhancements" that allow them to be spotted at the right distances if required (types of solutions for this is a side discussion) note 2: some people will find this "correct FoV" to narrow because they have a small monitor, and nothing should prevent them from reassigning a new choosen FoV for their normal setting, but they then shouldnt complain that when using 70 FoV on a monitor that normally only should use 45 FoV will shrink all onscreen objects and make distant objects nearly impossible to see (because you just zoomed out by 2x by setting an artificially large FoV to gain peripheral vision). note 3: there were a few flightsim games in the late 1990's which gave you a wider FoV on a small screen and compensated for the shrinking objects by artificially enlarging them, allowing you to see objects in their closer-to-correct sizes while using a wider FoV. this had an odd effect since more objects had to be squeezed onscreen, and it is probably to complex to implement for BoB/CoD with al the other cpu/gpu loads conclusion: if at least have all people start in this discussion with their correct FoV's for monitor sizes, and then look at the distant-object-visibility problem again to see what kind of "visual enhancements" are needed to keep these objects visible at the right distances, then imho we are on the right track from the beginning.failing that you start with a distorted view of reality, and fail to use what is already possible/intended to correct the visibility issue. keep in mind many of us (if BoB lives up to expectations) will soon add a 2e or even 3e monitor to our main screen for gaming (24' lcd's are down to 200 or 300 $ now, and the future of simulation is in multi monitor setups) note: the fact we are trying to represent on a lcd monitor in 2011 what an individual can see with the naked unaided eye from a cockpit, means that having correct object size on the screen might not be enough to make it correctly visible onscreen as it would be in real life, eg e few extra or darker pixels could be added to these different distant objects (no idea if this is a simple task, but all it might need is for the smallest LoD models to be altered and made artificially more visible, making "right visibility" a priority over "right color and shape" Quote:
for most flatscreen lcd's from 19' to about 27' the correct viewing distance is about an arms lengths away from the viewers eyes (video geeks have very straight forward methods to determine correct viewing distances for screes/tv's/projectors etc, plenty of info available on that and its pretty simple). for ex most 30' monitors significantly go up in resolution and have smaller pixel sizes, allowing the viewer to sit closer. larger then 30' usually means the person is using a lcd tv (which have lower resolutions and larger pixels), so the viewer usually should/would sit a little further away then the average pc monitor (or the blockyness of the onscreen image would degrade what you see)
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President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children Last edited by zapatista; 11-20-2011 at 11:48 AM.
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#64
11-20-2011, 03:28 PM
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zapatista is exactly right. I have a 55" Samsung monitor (http://www.samsung.com/hk_en/consume...ype=prd_detail). I sit about 30"-36" away, which approximates a 80 degree FOV as shown in the following formula:
HOW TO DETERMINE THE CORRECT DISTANCE FROM WHICH TO VIEW THE SCREEN IN ORDER TO SEE A 1:1 REAL-WORLD IMAGE SCALE. view dist. = (scrn width/2) / TAN(FOV/2) Example: Screen width = 50" (the measured horizontal display size) FOV = 80 deg. view dist. = (50"/2) / TAN(80/2) view dist. = 25 / TAN(40) view dist. = 25 / 0.839 view dist. = 29.8" At this setting objects are their real-life sizes, there is never a need to zoom in or out. Its certainly easier to spot enemy a/c, and there is never a need for icons etc. Its very immersive. Last edited by Prime Time; 11-20-2011 at 03:35 PM.
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#65
11-20-2011, 05:42 PM
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That is the problem of the people like me that have a 21 inches monitor... i should be attached to the monitor for seeing in real dimensions..
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#66
11-23-2011, 01:10 AM
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so when you set the correct FoV for your monitor size, do you now see distant objects correctly ? (like planes and ground vehicles). your original argument was well put and legitimate, but your monitor must be set to the right FoV to make any observations to determine how well visibility is simulated in CoD/BoB. so far this has not been closely examined in BoB/CoD since its release (and it was a major problem in il2 with 30% of normal visibility distance) with the documentation and facts presented in this thread we have the basic facts now to determine if this is still a problem for BoB/CoD. some basic points before comparing observations from different users - have your monitor set to correct FoV for monitor size - if possible at least use some basic software monitor calibration (several available for free on the web) - be aware that cheaper 6 bit color monitors (TN based technology) in il2 had a significant advantage in dot/LoD spotting ability compared to the medium/higher end 8 bit color monitors (MVA/PVA and IPS based technology). this might not be relevant anymore in BoB/CoD, but good to be aware of in case major difference in spotting/tracking ability arise btw different users. - differentiate between spotting an object at a certain distance, being able to track it once spotted, and object identification - differentiate between spotting/tracking against sky background, and seen against the ground or water note: since oleg/luthier now have increased the LoD models from 3 (in il2) to about 8 or 10 in CoD/BoB, and the "LoD to dot transition point" is at a much greater distance (it was 1.5 km approx for a small fighter, and around 3-5 km for a larger bomber in il2), and the fact LoD models now have "volume" (represented as small 3D object "blobs", versus a flat cluster of moving pixels as was the case in il2), this means that spotting/tracking of distant aircraft and ground objects should be significantly improved in CoD/BoB (but is it close to realistic now ?) what are peoples observations now in BoB/CoD ? it would be good to have some feedback on observations from different users. lots of good facts already presented in this thread, lets standardize the observation variables now, and then compare peoples findings. to keep it simple initially: - set monitor to correct FoV (see earlier formula) - try and record at what distances you can spot or track very distant planes (as dots, anywhere from 3 to 10 km), or closer planes at about 1000 to 3000 meters (most of whom would be LoD models). for ex, if you are tracking an enemy fighter agains terrain background, how easy/difficult is it to keep track of him while ? - try and observe from what altitude you can locate/spot individual ground vehicles (on open roads or in fields), either with them stationary or moving. allied pilots in normandy described spotting them in fields or on open roads from 1200 to 1500 meters (in il2 this was extremely poorly "simulated", and you needed to be at 250 or 300 meters) - dont use zoom views to look for these object, stick to the right FoV setting determined for your monitor so a correct comparison can be made between users. note: in early preview video's of CoD it was clearly visible that oleg/luthier had given the smaller LoD (level of detail) models "volume" to make them stand out more against the background, as an attempt to improve visibility. this was a pretty ingenious method, and i dont think the effect was caused by simple bump mapping features from the gfx card. i havnt seen the same effect as strongly visible since release in user posted video's, and i hope oleg/luthier havnt turned that down again while they were dealing with gfx engine problems (because it was pretty effective at making these distant objects/targets stand out more). what are your observations ?
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President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children Last edited by zapatista; 11-23-2011 at 02:01 AM.
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#67
11-23-2011, 05:08 AM
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don't talk too loud about this things m8 or someone might drop on your head the thousand-pages-navy-visibility-instruction-manual-study, which you're supposed to agree with 100% blinfolded, or you'll be considered as a traitor !!!  I got tired of trying to speak to the stones a few posts ago, mate.
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 Former member of:StG111 2003-2005 | SG1 2006-2009 | 15.Span 2010-2011 CPU Intel i7 920 @ 2.67 -> OC 4 Ghz MB ASUS P6T Cooler Noctua NH-D14 Memory 12GB GPU 2x nVidia 285 GTX 1GB SLI HD 2x SATAII WD VelociRaptor 150GB RAID 0 SB ASUS Xonar DS/DT 7.1 PSU Tagan 1100W OS W7 Ult.64 LCD LG W2284F-PF TrackIR 3 Pro + Saitek X-52 + Saitek Pro Rudders Pedals + Pro Flight Throttle Quadrant + Saitek PcDash 2 Last edited by KeBrAnTo; 11-23-2011 at 05:25 AM.
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#68
11-23-2011, 09:10 AM
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 http://theflatearthsociety.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
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 A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter. Iit is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.Thus it is doubly ironic that the Spitfire’s reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria.
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#70
12-03-2011, 07:15 PM
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Linear Mode
