The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

I am not denying the 'dark spots' in our history (no country doesn't have any), but why does everyone need to bring it up in a thread about WWII?, our colonial past has nothing to do with it.

Well, I guess that is because lots of british always are bringing up other's dark spots. Most folks I know do not like to be lectured by people that have their own issues.

I mean, look at it this way. From a continental perspecitve, in general the british ran the largest conquest in history all over the world, they invented the concentration camps, they have a history of putting down resistance to their empirial ambitions in sometimes brutal ways and specifically in regards to WW2, they allied with the Russians, who were at least as agressive as the germans, they've had no problems with reducing all german cities above 100.000 citiziens to rubble and a lot of even smaller towns and villages (sometimes for the single reason that and old rugged road ran through them which made them "strategic important".) and put their inhabitants to the cruelest of deaths. And after the war there is the Rheinwiesen issues and the lack of support for german resistance goups.

If you were living on the continent and constantly, I mean constantly had to listen to rather one sided blames, you'd be quite miffed as well, eventually. Germany, after all, is not the only country that falls victim to british self rightousness. It's not about having a go at the british, a people I personally and many many others have a lot of respect for, it's just about being fed up by the enduring and in your face hypocrisis, really.

If the UK was celebrating the victory like the Russians, for example, as matter of national survival and eventual victory, nobody would complain. But it's always in connection with a certain morale highground and contempt for others that simply is out of place, especially in a Europe that is marked by ever greater cooperation instead of national quarrels.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Well, I guess that is because lots of british always are bringing up other's dark spots. Most folks I know do not like to be lectured by people that have their own issues.

I mean, look at it this way. From a continental perspecitve, in general the british ran the largest conquest in history all over the world, they invented the concentration camps, they have a history of putting down resistance to their empirial ambitions in sometimes brutal ways and specifically in regards to WW2, they allied with the Russians, who were at least as agressive as the germans, they've had no problems with reducing all german cities above 100.000 citiziens to rubble and a lot of even smaller towns and villages (sometimes for the single reason that and old rugged road ran through them which made them "strategic important".) and put their inhabitants to the cruelest of deaths. And after the war there is the Rheinwiesen issues and the lack of support for german resistance goups.

If you were living on the continent and constantly, I mean constantly had to listen to rather one sided blames, you'd be quite miffed as well, eventually. Germany, after all, is not the only country that falls victim to british self rightousness. It's not about having a go at the british, a people I personally and many many others have a lot of respect for, it's just about being fed up by the enduring and in your face hypocrisis, really.

If the UK was celebrating the victory like the Russians, for example, as matter of national survival and eventual victory, nobody would complain. But it's always in connection with a certain morale highground and contempt for others that simply is out of place.

This is all a fair point....but the waters got very muddied in this thread, it stated as a question on how the Luftwaffe took defat in the battle, then some very one sided oppinions came in saying there was no victory, this was argued with no proof of any such case, but anybody British who contributed was attacked for being 'Nationalist', and the rest of the thread became a slanging match and anti-british witch hunt.....the original topic fell by the wayside.
In the interest of fairness why doesn't someone start a thread on everything the British need to be ashamed of.

You know what I think about "feeling ashamed of" some deeds of ancestors.

I for my part I am very happy that we have this huge memorial. It is like a huge salt grain in a wound. And yes, it may hurt sometimes. But I think by this pain staking needle constantly remembering us what is wrong one can improve and do the right thing and thus better oneself. Looking straight into the truth just can help you to make the right decisions. Ignoring truth only may lead to repeat the same mistakes.

PS: And I agree: there had been some awful posts here directed at the British. I ignored them on purpose as they really spoke for themselves. Some ppl just are so *** that it is useless to argue with them as there is no hope that they can learn. You on the contrary appear like somebody that is able to learn and not as somebody dumb. So take it as a compliment that people argue with you

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

You know what I think about "feeling ashamed of" some deeds of ancestors.

I for my part I am very happy that we have this huge memorial. It is like a huge salt grain in a wound. And yes, it may hurt sometimes. But I think by this pain staking needle constantly remembering us what is wrong one can improve and do the right thing and thus better oneself. Looking straight into the truth just can help you to make the right decisions. Ignoring truth only may lead to repeat the same mistakes.

Exactly a point I made before, I can't help it if the British have no such equivalent, perhaps it is because our colonialist campaigns all happened so far back in history in a time when those kind of actions were 'less' frowned upon and the people who need apologising to are long gone, the events of WWII are still in the memories of living people and happened at a time when it was very much frowned upon, the British don't claim to be on a moral high ground.....we just did the right thing at that time.

[Xilon_x]

This is ITALIAN fascist propaganda to Churchill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvwxigxeMv0

[Skoshi Tiger]

I don't really care if it was a battle, a campaign, an offensive or how ever you want to name it, Britain can be very justly proud of it's achievements during the Battle of Britain.

Imagine how different our would would be today if there hadn't been 20 miles of water seperating Britain from the continent and the bravery of all those who stood up against Nazi Gemany and it's attempt to dominate Europe in those dark days.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

This is all a fair point....but the waters got very muddied in this thread, it stated as a question on how the Luftwaffe took defat in the battle, then some very one sided oppinions came in saying there was no victory, this was argued with no proof of any such case, but anybody British who contributed was attacked for being 'Nationalist', and the rest of the thread became a slanging match and anti-british witch hunt.....the original topic fell by the wayside.
In the interest of fairness why doesn't someone start a thread on everything the British need to be ashamed of.

Well, that is not quite false as well. It all really developed when Stern jumped in and did not call it a victory. In the course of that debate a lot of the old clichés came out, and that is what got this debate now kick started.

On the other hand, aside some very personal insults thrown by some in this thread by both sides of the argument, I think this thread was highly interesting and quite beneficial in understanding where ppl come from. Not a bad result at all, imho.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Well, I guess that is because lots of british always are bringing up other's dark spots. Most folks I know do not like to be lectured by people that have their own issues.

I mean, look at it this way. From a continental perspecitve, in general the british ran the largest conquest in history all over the world, they invented the concentration camps, they have a history of putting down resistance to their empirial ambitions in sometimes brutal ways and specifically in regards to WW2, they allied with the Russians, who were at least as agressive as the germans, they've had no problems with reducing all german cities above 100.000 citiziens to rubble and a lot of even smaller towns and villages (sometimes for the single reason that and old rugged road ran through them which made them "strategic important".) and put their inhabitants to the cruelest of deaths. And after the war there is the Rheinwiesen issues and the lack of support for german resistance goups.

If you were living on the continent and constantly, I mean constantly had to listen to rather one sided blames, you'd be quite miffed as well, eventually. Germany, after all, is not the only country that falls victim to british self rightousness. It's not about having a go at the british, a people I personally and many many others have a lot of respect for, it's just about being fed up by the enduring and in your face hypocrisis, really.

If the UK was celebrating the victory like the Russians, for example, as matter of national survival and eventual victory, nobody would complain. But it's always in connection with a certain morale highground and contempt for others that simply is out of place, especially in a Europe that is marked by ever greater cooperation instead of national quarrels.

they have a history of putting down resistance to their empirial ambitions in sometimes brutal ways

Just like Germany, then. I sometimes wonder how much Germans (and many other peoples) are actually aware of their own countries Imperial and Colonial activities. Germany had many colonial interests around the world (including African and the Pacific colonies, and the only reason they were not more extensive is that they had effectively been left behind in the race to plunder other countries natural resources. Something which Kaiser Wilhelm II himself actually lamented, stating that "Germany has begun her colonial enterprise very late, and was, therefore, at the disadvantage of finding all the desirable places already occupied." Hmmmm.

What is now modern day Namibia was a former German Colony (with a greater landmass than Germany itself), and also the setting for the first (German perpetrated) Genocide of the 20th Century. Rebellions by the Namaqua and Herero tribes were ruthlessly and violently quashed, resulting in some 120,000 deaths. There are also allegations that desert wells were systematically poisoned by the German colonial army.

So, the fact that Germany was a little 'late to the party' is the reason we are not now talking more about its colonialism, they 'missed the boat' as it were.

There are many shameful and abhorrent episodes of British colonialism, slavery in particular (and which I personally was educated about as a child at school) but the point being is that Britain was hardly 'alone' in this vile enterprise, they were just ahead of the game.

I do not blame modern day young Germans for perhaps feeling that they are being unfairly vilified ('the son cannot be held guilty for the sins of the father'), but this 'other countries did it too' moral relativism is a little off the mark.

The British Empire never had a systematic, centralised, organised bureaucracy and infrastructure dedicated to and formed with the sole and express purpose of murdering each and every race on Earth different to them, or all other groups who did not conform to some perverse 'ideal'. All of them. Each and every one. Man, woman and child. That is the key difference.

More on 'concentration camps' later maybe, I'm off to the pub lol. Have fun peeps.

Err, maybe not. Was this thread ever on topic? LOL. Waaaaaay OT.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

they have a history of putting down resistance to their empirial ambitions in sometimes brutal ways

Just like Germany, then. I sometimes wonder how much Germans (and many other peoples) are actually aware of their own countries Imperial and Colonial activities. Germany had many colonial interests around the world (including African and the Pacific colonies, and the only reason they were not more extensive is that they had effectively been left behind in the race to plunder other countries natural resources. Something which Kaiser Wilhelm II himself actually lamented, stating that "Germany has begun her colonial enterprise very late, and was, therefore, at the disadvantage of finding all the desirable places already occupied." Hmmmm.

What is now modern day Namibia was a former German Colony (with a greater landmass than Germany itself), and also the setting for the first (German perpetrated) Genocide of the 20th Century. Rebellions by the Namaqua and Herero tribes were ruthlessly and violently quashed, resulting in some 120,000 deaths. There are also allegations that desert wells were systematically poisoned by the German colonial army.

So, the fact that Germany was a little 'late to the party' is the reason we are not now talking more about its colonialism, they 'missed the boat' as it were.

There are many shameful and abhorrent episodes of British colonialism, slavery in particular (and which I personally was educated about as a child at school) but the point being is that Britain was hardly 'alone' in this vile enterprise, they were just ahead of the game.

I do not blame modern day young Germans for perhaps feeling that they are being unfairly vilified ('the son cannot be held guilty for the sins of the father'), but this 'other countries did it too' moral relativism is a little off the mark.

The British Empire never had a systematic, centralised, organised bureaucracy and infrastructure dedicated to and formed with the sole and express purpose of murdering each and every race on Earth different to them, or all other groups who did not conform to some perverse 'ideal'. All of them. Each and every one. Man, woman and child. That is the key difference.

More on 'concentration camps' later maybe, I'm off to the pub lol. Have fun peeps.

Err, maybe not. Was this thread ever on topic? LOL. Waaaaaay OT.

Cheers.

Very sensitive post and I agree to most of it.

On one thing I would like to comment though. You rightly say that by pointing out British atrocities with the purpose to relativise German atrocities is wrong. I strongly support this.

But just a few lines later you start to compare British atrocities to German ones suggesting that whatever the Brits came up with is on a lower scale than what the Germans did. I do not make a statement about the content itself but you do exactly the same that you blame others to do: relativise by comparison. Relativism goes both ways and should be refuted both ways.

An injustice remains an injustice and hence uncomparable. They stand there and should be all regarded and considered independently without going into: country X or country y has done worse. Because this is what relativism is about. The same holds for instance for all the comparison between Nazi Germany's crimes and Soviet crimes. Both are there. Both are outrageously horrible. The existance of one does not make the other one smaller.

Just because Jack the Ripper killed five people does not make killing one man "only" a lesser crime.

So even if country x had no extermination scheme or killed only 10% of those killed by country y does not make it having less darker spots in history.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

Very sensitive post and I agree to most of it.

On one thing I would like to comment though. You rightly say that by pointing out British atrocities with the purpose to relativise German atrocities is wrong. I strongly support this.

But just a few lines later you start to compare British atrocities to German ones suggesting that whatever the Brits came up with is on a lower scale than what the Germans did. I do not make a statement about the content itself but you do exactly the same that you blame others to do: relativise by comparison. Relativism goes both ways and should be refuted both ways.

An injustice remains an injustice and hence uncomparable. They stand there and should be all regarded and considered independently without going into: country X or country y has done worse. Because this is what relativism is about. The same holds for instance for all the comparison between Nazi Germany's crimes and Soviet crimes. Both are there. Both are outrageously horrible. The existance of one does not make the other one smaller.

Just because Jack the Ripper killed five people does not make killing one man "only" a lesser crime.

So even if country x had no extermination scheme or killed only 10% of those killed by country y does not make it having less darker spots in history.

That is basically the gist of it. I am not trying to justify german crimes in any way and take them at face value. The problem really is that whenever british misdeeds come up, it's attempted to justify them (we also brought a lot of good to the world, others were worse then us, we were forced to take drastic measures to bring victory, etc). You won't find this kind of relativism in Germany, at least not in a way to justify the actions of the people back then and make them "right". Just irritation that others still try to justify their own actions in such a way. Crimes are crimes. Maybe a major problem is that a lot of the british perspective comes from a mindset that for many people in Europe already is considered a bit of an anachromism, that nationality defines who you are and what you are accountable for. That is purely speculative, however.