water cannon

[ATAG_Doc]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Does anyone think that the Eastern Block countries, East Germany, Romania, etc. would have put up with the Russia communist oppression for over 50 years if they'd have had guns? They would have tried to do something to resist.

Does anyone think that the people in Somalia "today" would be under the oppression of the war lords, if the general population had access to guns?
They would try to do something to resist.

Does anyone think that the oppression in Darfur would be going on if the persecuted people had guns? They would try to do something to resist.

When people are empowered with the will resist, or they have guns and guts, they can make oppressors seek easier prey.

Guns are harmless, they are just metal objects like cars, hammers, screwdrivers, etc. You can kill someone with any of the three in the hands of the wrong person.

Guns can be a tool of dubious value of course against government oppression.

When Russia was at war with Afghanistan they had the big helicopter gun ships with the extremely fast "guns". The Russians could wipe out an entire village with one 4 second fly by. The Afghans were helpless with their handguns against such weapons and a well equipped enemy. America gave the Afghans the SAM, RPG. The Afghans began to knock down those gunships. This was a war too costly to continue for Russia, they loaded up and left.

Guns have a place, but in modern day warfare I'd say it is mostly in the minds of the people that think the ordinary handgun will be their salvation.

That my friend is the reason you have the 2nd amendment in America. Perhaps the world doesn't understand that the Constitution in America does not state what the government will do for you or it's obligation towards its people. It is a charter of negative liberties against the government to restrain it. And specifically the 2nd amendment is not there to prevent authorities from not allowing people to own guns. Read this next part very carefully. It is there to prevent the government from turning on its people and changing it into any other system that the people do not authorize. It is a written threat and a promise that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Not for sport. Not for coolness. But to CONTROL GOVERNMENT. Not the body itself. But the once in a while socialist that gets out of hand. We get torches and pitchforks first then elections and then the 2nd amendment remedy is there.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

well mate, if/when the s**t really hits the fan, I doubt you'll save yourself with sophisms..

When it comes to shove back I think consideration of your adversary is important. If you are getting shot at....

I'd say IED and handguns can do a world of hurt as we have seen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

One thing about a gun, if you pull a gun on someone bluffing time is over. You shoot the dude, unless he becomes a whimpering mass of obsequious jelly.

I don't have much use for guns in daily life, but I do own many. It is really not good sense to discuss your gun ownership in most countries. The governments are very frightened of their own populations, look at London, Greece, Ireland... no sense going on about it. People all over the world are having real issues with their governments.

Guns can contribute significantly against government tyranny.

[Vengeanze]

Originally Posted by timej31

That my friend is the reason you have the 2nd amendment in America. Perhaps the world doesn't understand that the Constitution in America does not state what the government will do for you or it's obligation towards its people. It is a charter of negative liberties against the government to restrain it. And specifically the 2nd amendment is not there to prevent authorities from not allowing people to own guns. Read this next part very carefully. It is there to prevent the government from turning on its people and changing it into any other system that the people do not authorize. It is a written threat and a promise that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Not for sport. Not for coolness. But to CONTROL GOVERNMENT. Not the body itself. But the once in a while socialist that gets out of hand. We get torches and pitchforks first then elections and then the 2nd amendment remedy is there.

We use democracy instead of weapons to control government. But I'm a socialist so guess that puts me on your nut list.

[ATAG_Doc]

Originally Posted by Vengeanze

We use democracy instead of weapons to control government. But I'm a socialist so guess that puts me on your nut list.

Democracies always fail. They always end up being mob rule. All it takes is for one group to become more populous than the other people that have lived there for centuries and they have more votes and do and elect who they want and do what they want. Socialism is responsible for more than 70 million deaths in only a hand full of nations. I wouldn't be too proud to admit that on here.

I hope it doesn't come as a shock to you but look into German history during the 1920's through 1930's. HE was elected also. And HE to was a socialist.

The United States isn't a democracy. Hope that doesn't come as a shock to anyone not living here.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You know what, in the end of the day it's your choice, your obstinate position on this has bore its consequences (Cumbria shooting, Hungerford, Monkseaton, Dunblane).

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

...what really really annoys me is all these advocates for a no-firearms society, which are frankly delusional and dont have the faintest idea of the world they live in.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

It's this obstinate attitude that causes what happened with the riots, if police is not a lethal threat, people will simply ignore them.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

....you can actually see it in the arrogance and patronising attitude of their posts.. the conception and tolerance for others' ideas and principles is quite a random one here..

If only people were as tolerant to other people's views as you, Sternjaeger.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Vengeanze

We use democracy instead of weapons to control government. But I'm a socialist so guess that puts me on your nut list.

Any country whose citizens do not have the right to bear arms, is facing real problems. I say that as I view the current banking and economic crisis in the world. Riots and insurrection aimed at incompetency in governments are central topics of international news daily.

People can only give up so much through entitlements until there is no more give up. When people become desperate for their daily needs then all the cautions and high sounding words won't mean a thing.

Failied social experiments won't mean zip, because when someone else has to pay for others to live and they don't have the means to provide for themselves... it's gonna hit the proverbial fan.

I want access to lots of guns and ammo when it hits the fan.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Lixma

If only people were as tolerant to other people's views as you, Sternjaeger.

lol, touche', but it's only a reflection of what I normally get here...

you lot founded an empire on guns and violence and now live in complete denial, puh-leeease!

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

I want access to lots of guns and ammo when it hits the fan.

correcto-mondo!

[ATAG_Doc]

I fear the person that is so trusting that they allow persons in power to have so much control over their lives. Such as the food you eat. The food supply itself. Everything I could not allow myself to be so dependent on elected persons to not have a change of heart and decide that I was not the kind of person that should be allowed to inhabit my own land. Don't think that it can't / wont happen. You have an open society? Have a lot of new people arriving that are just hanging around and their numbers grow? When they get large enough to become a voting force in a democracy its all too easy for a movement to plant seeds to take over from within then you will not have any choice. I don't like allowing anyone to have that power. Men are fallible and always will be.

[Lixma]

Guys, you know who you are, you really ought to give up on these (deleted word) apocalypse fantasies. You know the ones; It's finally happened - the 'sh*t has hit the fan' and you and your Glock are the only thing standing between a hoard of liberal, homosexual, zombie Democrats and your pregnant wife and subterranean stash of radiation-proof tinned goods.

It's not healthy, you know.