Dear MG

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by yellonet

Again. Why do you need a roadmap and situation updates?
It's not like you have stock in the company, is it?
And I hope you're not planning your life around this...
And while it would be nice, I don't see it as a must to know exactly what they are doing at the moment, I know that they are fixing the game and that's enough.

So tell me, why MG should take time off their work to post in the forum?
Just to appease a handful of people that for some reason feel that they've been cheated and can't play it cool?
And no, it doesn't take just a few minutes, because they have to consider what and how to communicate as it is official communications from developer to customer, they probably don't want to blurp out just anything.

If you really want proper communication you should probably write a letter or at least an e-mail to the publisher, not post on a forum of the developer.

Obviously you never worked in a professional environment. Any serious team working on a project needs a "to-do" list, tasks assigned to people, and a road map that helps them (and the people they're reporting to) to assess the situation, extrapolating a bullet point list from that is a 10 mins job. And yes, Luthier doesn't HAVE to report here, but it's advisable he would, if anything cos he's been doing it constantly before, often taking the PR role when Oleg was fed up. As I mentioned before, this silence and lack of patches is probably just because they haven't quite managed to fix the important stuff yet, but they never openly admitted that they delivered us an incomplete product, nor gave us a rough estimate of when/how things will be fixed.

It's like buying a new car that promises a lot but that doesn't work properly, and hearing once every three months from the dealer "yeah, we're working on it buddy, don't worry" and receiving pictures of mechanics working on random stuff (like someone else's car).. If you can't see the whole situation as utterly ridiculous then you're probably blind.

[kendo65]

This forum is in danger of disappearing into the hole that SimHQ's COD forum was in 3 months ago - no discussion of anything useful, just a continuous battle between defenders and attackers.

I have complaints about the game myself, but it must surely be obvious now after weeks of rehashing exactly the same argument in many different threads that we are just going around in circles. There is NO facet of the argument that has not been covered again and again in the last weeks. There has been no resolution or advance made from any of it. There is justification for expressing your opinion - but after you have expressed it for the 20th, 30th or 40th time it may be clever to conclude that you have got the message across. Some people are behaving like petulant 6 year olds - they'll hold their breath and turn blue until they get an answer...

For whatever reason the devs are not biting. They have obviously made a decision to refrain from commenting in the current climate. I can see both sides here - I'd like some info myself, but I completely understand why Luthier would feel reluctant to post much here because unless he can produce an update that fixes everything in one fell swoop it will just lead to more negativity and attacks.

SimHQ seem to have resolved their issues by splitting the forum in two. Maybe, as some have suggested, the same needs to happen here. But surely, by now, we all can see that the arguing is going around in circles and not achieving anything?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by kendo65

I can see both sides here - I'd like some info myself, but I completely understand why Luthier would feel reluctant to post much here because unless he can produce an update that fixes everything in one fell swoop it will just lead to more negativity and attacks.

you see Kendo, this is exactly the point. First of all, Luthier himself is the only person responsible for this, since he's the one that went silent and didn't bother listening to the wise bunch of forum members who say "we know you can't fix it all in one go, fair enough, but for pete's sake keep us updated on what's happening, if anything to show some respect to people that have waited for this and supported your work for years".

The reality of software houses nowadays is one of extreme interaction potential: the reach out for info, documents, manuals, pictures etc is virtually limitless, using this potential is something that could achieve great, great results. I personally provided docs to Oleg himself during the early dev stages of CoD, found some more material for a friend at Daidalos, got in contact with museums, found pics, documents, with no need for compensations or recognitions, just for the sake of the sim's quality.

A development team that doesn't interact with the community, esp in the field of simulation, is a team that will make mistakes, which then will take time to fix. Oleg's leaving was already a bad sign, but I thought I'd stop being pessimistic, if anything it was Luthier the one that kept the communication channel opened, but this new attitude of theirs shows only poor managerial skills, it's a true shame, above all the fact that no matter how often we tell them "hey, some of us can help with our competence for free", they simply don't care.

And please remember that I still really really hope to be wrong.

[SG1_Lud]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

A development team that doesn't interact with the community....

....it's a true shame, above all the fact that no matter how often we tell them "hey, some of us can help with our competence for free", they simply don't care.

One thing is expecting for communication from the developers, other interacting with them, and other very different is that they accept the help of competent people.

In other past discussions like this, finally has arose that some competent veterans are particularly upset because they gave/offered help, and were ignored.

Some of these veterans, (not everyone, and I'd like to stress that IMO, clearly is not your case), have choosen to attack the developer/ game as much as possible.

This last ones are troublemakers, and is very easy for them to flame to forums with the idea of "we need more communication", because a lot of peaceful forum users will join gladly a thread, post or petition wrapped this way.

These users are so confrontated to other users that are fed up of the so called whines etc. , giving the appereance that we are a split community.

In fact, there are only a few troublemakers, and is those what we need urgently to receive attention from the mods if we want to keep this forum to continue as an attractive place for creativity, help and information.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

And please remember that I still really really hope to be wrong.

Exactly, and IMO that is why, despite not being satisfied with the interaction, you are not creating trouble and I am fine with your opinions, even when I dont share them.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by LUD

Exactly, and IMO that is why, despite not being satisfied with the interaction, you are not creating trouble and I am fine with your opinions, even when I dont share them.

thank you LUD, it's good to see that more and more people understand my point. This witch hunt of the whiners, trolls and what not has become a hobby lately, and although there obviously are/were some, other people don't just complain, they just express their perplexity in front of a change of register that has become quite worrying.

The problem is the maturity of the people involved: if I was in an open IL-2 LAN event and heard two teenagers arguing over a silly matter, I would take the age into account and be less caustic or ignore them altogether, because I've been a teenager too and a very hot headed one; but in a forum, where you're just a nickname, everyone turns into a brash, full mouthed keyboard hero, which sometimes goes into very dangerous territories..

As mentioned somewhere else, I have been threatened by a delusional member of this forum, who I suppose has been banned, an (alleged) Australian police officer that started being offensive and threatened me, in pure "I'm the internet hero and I'll give you a good one" style. Now to think that this kind of people hang around armed normally is very worrying, but it gave me an idea of what distorted perspectives and behaviours people can get to in these places..

Anyway, sorry for the OT, let's keep on flying and hoping for good news soon..

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

you see Kendo, this is exactly the point. First of all, Luthier himself is the only person responsible for this, since he's the one that went silent and didn't bother listening to the wise bunch of forum members who say "we know you can't fix it all in one go, fair enough, but for pete's sake keep us updated on what's happening, if anything to show some respect to people that have waited for this and supported your work for years".

The reality of software houses nowadays is one of extreme interaction potential: the reach out for info, documents, manuals, pictures etc is virtually limitless, using this potential is something that could achieve great, great results. I personally provided docs to Oleg himself during the early dev stages of CoD, found some more material for a friend at Daidalos, got in contact with museums, found pics, documents, with no need for compensations or recognitions, just for the sake of the sim's quality.

A development team that doesn't interact with the community, esp in the field of simulation, is a team that will make mistakes, which then will take time to fix. Oleg's leaving was already a bad sign, but I thought I'd stop being pessimistic, if anything it was Luthier the one that kept the communication channel opened, but this new attitude of theirs shows only poor managerial skills, it's a true shame, above all the fact that no matter how often we tell them "hey, some of us can help with our competence for free", they simply don't care.

And please remember that I still really really hope to be wrong.

I know, and I agree with everything you say. It just seems that Luthier has tired of getting burnt by the responses here (and I know the argument that it is their responsibility, that they're professionals and should be communicating, etc, and that members of the community such as yourself were actively involved in providing info and help). I'd like to hear what the situation is too, but it'll only happen, it seems, when the devs are ready. The situation (both with the game and the communication) is far from ideal, but the constant clamour for news is not working.

It has developed into a bit of a stand-off between some members here and the devs. I think the effect of confrontation here is similar to anywhere else - if people feel they're not being respected they dig the heels in and become less compliant - that goes for the devs too, who despite agreeing that things need to be improved are probably sick to the back teeth of reading the comments here.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by kendo65

This forum is in danger of disappearing into the hole that SimHQ's COD forum was in 3 months ago - no discussion of anything useful, just a continuous battle between defenders and attackers.

I have complaints about the game myself, but it must surely be obvious now after weeks of rehashing exactly the same argument in many different threads that we are just going around in circles. There is NO facet of the argument that has not been covered again and again in the last weeks. There has been no resolution or advance made from any of it. There is justification for expressing your opinion - but after you have expressed it for the 20th, 30th or 40th time it may be clever to conclude that you have got the message across. Some people are behaving like petulant 6 year olds - they'll hold their breath and turn blue until they get an answer...

For whatever reason the devs are not biting. They have obviously made a decision to refrain from commenting in the current climate. I can see both sides here - I'd like some info myself, but I completely understand why Luthier would feel reluctant to post much here because unless he can produce an update that fixes everything in one fell swoop it will just lead to more negativity and attacks.

SimHQ seem to have resolved their issues by splitting the forum in two. Maybe, as some have suggested, the same needs to happen here. But surely, by now, we all can see that the arguing is going around in circles and not achieving anything?

This posting was made July 20, 2011

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=24692

The information provided is the information the devs wanted to provide.

[adonys]

a simple "we're working" and nowhere nearly the information which was requested/needed from them..

[Ataros]

Originally Posted by adonys

a simple "we're working" and nowhere nearly the information which was requested/needed from them..

No way they do it every 4 days. We had an update last week, let's hope for one this week or next week or when a patch is ready. It is not reasonable to expect it twice per week. They should not spoil us too much

[Bryan21cag]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

It's like buying a new car that promises a lot but that doesn't work properly, and hearing once every three months from the dealer "yeah, we're working on it buddy, don't worry" and receiving pictures of mechanics working on random stuff (like someone else's car).. If you can't see the whole situation as utterly ridiculous then you're probably blind.

LOL and the perfect analogy of the day award goes too..........

this made me laugh at how utterly accurate it was.

well said sir, well said