Spitfire IIa in BOB??!???! NO 109 E4 ?!!?!

[VO101_Tom]

I think it the primary thing would be the equalisation of the time line, in which the RAF has a huge benefit currently.

The present most modern luftwaffe fighter with these not armoured cocpit, DB 601 engine and MG-FF weapon enters service in early 1939, in Spanish Civil War* There are not an additional modification or a development on LW fighter.

The first Spitfire Mk II enters in service in Aug 1940. The Germans got the 109 E-7 in the same month. An Bf 109 E-4, DB 601/N engine and a MG-FF/M cannon were received already on the same summer. From E-4 the German airplanes were equipped with Armoured cocpit, automatic prop pitch and automatic water radiator system, and C3 (100 octane) fuel (to /N engine). I mention the most important ones only.

100 octane fuel to Spits? Yes, because RAF used it. No doubt. Constant speed props to all Spits? Yes, yes because RAF used it. DB601/N engines to E-7? No, because LW used it only small numbers? Come on guys, you believe it this correct? No need trick with numbers, only matter: existed, or did not exist (if we ran forward this much already into the time to Spit II).



*"Early in the year (1939) J/88 had recieved 40 new cannon-armed Bf 109 E fighters, and the outdated early marks were passed to Gruppo 5-G-5. On 5 March Mölders's replacement as leader of 3 Staffel." (Osprey Airwar3 - Christopher Shores: Spanish Civil War Air Forces, page 42)

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

*"Early in the year (1939) J/88 had recieved 40 new cannon-armed Bf 109 E fighters, and the outdated early marks were passed to Gruppo 5-G-5. On 5 March Mölders's replacement as leader of 3 Staffel." (Osprey Airwar3 - Christopher Shores: Spanish Civil War Air Forces, page 42)

Lol, JG52 got there first 2, read it 2, cannon armed 109's in mid september 1940.

i can get you a quote for that to.

fact is, majority of BoB was 12llbs spit 1's and hurris with CSP with Spit II's turning up in numbers in sept, v bf109E1's the majority at the start, and E4's by the end, with a smattering of E7's at the end as well.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Lol, JG52 got there first 2, read it 2, cannon armed 109's in mid september 1940.

i can get you a quote for that to.

Please, it would be good if you would grant the source.

Originally Posted by fruitbat

fact is, majority of BoB was 12llbs spit 1's and hurris with CSP with Spit II's turning up in numbers in sept, v bf109E1's the majority at the start, and E4's by the end, with a smattering of E7's at the end as well.

How many planes flew - This is the map makers, mission makers' task. What is important for the dev team: existed or did not exist.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

Please, it would be good if you would grant the source.



How many planes flew - This is the map makers, mission makers' task. What is important for the dev team: existed or did not exist.

Source, Ulrich Steinhilper, Spitfire on my tail.

Steinhilper (he was the no2) and the leader whose name escapes me got to fly them, don't have my copy at the moment, can't remember the others name.

Up until then, they were all on E1's.

also, i've posted this loads of times already, but here we go again,

Hooton in Eagle in Flames gives the percentage losses of 109s by subtype:

July
E1 - 44%
E3 - 30%
E4 - 20%

August
E1 - 40%
E3 - 8%
E4 - 52%

September
E1 - 38%
E3 - 1%
E4 - 61%

October
E1 - 36%
E3 - 2%
E4 - 62%

and from Kurfust, over at ubi a while ago,

"I have some actual numbers. On 31 August 1940, fighter units (excluding JG 77) reported 375 E-1s, 125 E-3s, 339 E-4s and 32 E-7s on strength, indicating that most of the E-3s had been already converted to E-4 standard. JG 77 had around 100-125 aircraft with it, but for the rest of the units, its 75% cannon E-3/4/7, the rest are all MG E-1s. The E-1 and E-3 were produced parallel and in about equal numbers from the end of 1938, but by mid-1940, the production of the E-1 stopped, replaced by the E-4 and then the E-7."

Don't disagree at all that it would be nice to see them all though, and let the mission builders build the missions around them.

However, the E7 would be the last on my list in order 'to do', due to the limited numbers it flew in BoB.

I'd still like it though, not as much as an E1 and then an E4 though.

What i don't want, and is what will happen on some severs is them full of spitII's and E7's, as thats not BoB.

First up, it would just be nice to have a proper hurri, spit and 109 of any type performing correctly.....

[Sven]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

First up, it would just be nice to have a proper hurri, spit and 109 of any type performing correctly.....

+ 1 after that we can think about the future

[BRIGGBOY]

Originally Posted by Sven

+ 1 after that we can think about the future

+1 about having a proper modled hurri, spit and 109 before we start whining about other planes

[JG53Frankyboy]

E-7 would realy make the less sence !
as its fueltank ability was not used during the "typical" BoB time till end of october....
and with bombs its nothing else than a Bf109E-4/B

and a MG-FF/M in game would also be important to give the Bf110C-4&-7 their correct canons !!

[VO101_Tom]

Ok. I misunderstood your earlier sentence according to these:

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Lol, JG52 got there first 2, read it 2, cannon armed 109's in mid september 1940.
i can get you a quote for that to.

I thought, you say that LW did not use an MG-FF (or /M) earlier at this (sept 1940). They used cannon on E-3, and E-4 too. It is apparent from the list purely that these types flew early.
(I have these databases too, Kurfurst (aka VO101_Isegrim) my squad-mate )

Originally Posted by fruitbat

However, the E7 would be the last on my list in order 'to do', due to the limited numbers it flew in BoB.

Why would it be necessary to claim an order? One of the historical facts less important than the other one? At one of the airplanes important the type of the propeller, a whole series does not count at other one?
(only interest, if the numbers count, for what the E-3? Why not E-1 or E-4? Much more were flying from these, than E-3)

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

Ok. I misunderstood your earlier sentence according to these:


I thought, you say that LW did not use an MG-FF (or /M) earlier at this (sept 1940). They used cannon on E-3, and E-4 too. It is apparent from the list purely that these types flew early.
(I have these databases too, Kurfurst (aka VO101_Isegrim) my squad-mate )


Why would it be necessary to claim an order? One of the historical facts less important than the other one? At one of the airplanes important the type of the propeller, a whole series does not count at other one?
(only interest, if the numbers count, for what the E-3? Why not E-1 or E-4? Much more were flying from these, than E-3)

yeah i know there was plenty of cannon armed 109's around from the start, but i also know there was plenty of machine gun ones too, all through the battle

as to an order, it just makes sense to me to do the main players before the bit players, thats all.

But then as i have said many times on these boards, i'm mystified by the choices the devs made on release!

personally, i'd of done the E1 and E4 right form the off, and don't really understand the choice of the E3 instead because of the numbers like you say, but hey, thats just me.

If it had been up to me it would of been, SpitI 12lbs CSP, Hurri 12lbs CSP, Bf109E1, Bf109E4, Bf110C4.

then SpitIIa followed by Bf109E7.

[Sven]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

fact is, majority of BoB was 12llbs spit 1's and hurris with CSP with Spit II's turning up in numbers in sept, v bf109E1's the majority at the start, and E4's by the end, with a smattering of E7's at the end as well.

Yes, fact, so they should all be in this sim. Looking forward to the missing E1 E4 and E7.