Bf 110C issues

[Peril]

Performance of C-2 should be identical to C-4 (only difference being the newer model of the same gun, which weighted the same).

Just to add variety to the options and in reply to the above comment, which is likely correct.

I have the below in my collection of information on the 110, not saying this version should or shouldn't be included, just for interest on the topic. I also have some information on turn rates (in German graphs) which may be useful to someone. These also list 109E turn data so that could be helpful to those that need it.

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The DB 601N was an improved version of the DB 601 that with it's re-designed cylinder heads, increased manifold pressure and revolutions, using 'C-2' natural or 'C-3' synthetic 100 octane fuel obtained increased power output. Originally 1400 PS output was planned. The powerplant entered production in the end of 1939 and was used in the Bf 109E-4/N, E-7/N and Bf 110C fighters and destroyer, and the He 111 P and Do 215 bombers. The datasheet notes that the Bf 109F use another version of the DB 601N, with improved supercharger ('verbessertem Lader'). This latter version had higher rated altitude, otherwise it was similiar.
It should be noted that German datasheets are sometimes quite inconsistent about time limitations; this one qoute 1-min limitation, possibly carried over in error from the DB 601A's 1-min special power boost. Other documents of the DB 601N however give the limit as 5 minutes.


On the Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 19 July 1940 at the it was noted that up to that date one Gruppe (Wing, each with 3 Staffeln, or Squadrons with 12 planes) of Bf 109 had re-equiped with DB 601N. 1



On the left :
The fuselage of Bf 109E-4/N, W.Nr. 1190, 'White 4', is being unloaded by Curtiss workers. The Emil belonged to 4. Staffel Staffel of JG 4, and was flown by Uffz. Horst Perez on, when it was shot down on the 30th September 1940 over East Dean during the Battle of Britain. Note the fuel triangle with the '100' label, pointo to 100 octane fuel and the DB 601N.




On the Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on the 22nd January 1941, the Generalstab pointed out the following figures
on the number of 'active' DB 601N installed, referring to reports from the units on 1st of January, thus giving us a good picture
on the number of Bf 109E-../N types in frontline serviceon the 1st of January : 2

in Bf 109s
Bf 109E-1 : 16 pcs, Bf 109E-3 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-4 : 54 pcs, Bf 109E-6 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-7 : 34 pcs, Bf 109E-8 : 2pcs. Bf 109F-1 : 5 pcs.

Total 112 Bf 109E with DB 601N present in service, plus 5 Bf 109F.

in Bf 110s
Bf 110C-1 : 4 pcs, Bf 110C-4 : 40 pcs, Bf 110C-5 : 12, Bf 110C-7 : 14 pcs, Bf 110D-0 : 18 pcs, Bf 110D-2 : 20 pcs, Bf 110D-3 : 8 pcs, BF 110E-1 : 176 pcs, Bf 110E-2 : 14 pcs.

Total : 306 engines, ie. 153 Bf 110s with DB 601N present in service.

in Misc. types
He 111P : 8 pcs, Do 215 : 68 pcs.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Remo

2. The artificial horizon sometimes stop functioning.

If it happens during normal flight (for example, smoothly cruising from point A to B) it's a bug, but i haven't experienced it so far.

If it happens only after violent maneuvers it's not a bug, it happens with all the planes in the sim and it's due to the gyros driving the instruments tumbling. If you fly straight and level for 5 minutes or so it will recover.

[Kurfurst]

A bit of a summary on the 110C with DB 601N (ca. 20% increased output at all altitudes).

The story in short:

in total, some 4 Gruppen (equivalent of RAF Wings, with ca 12 Squadrons) of Bf 110C were powered by the more powerful DB 601N during the daylight phase of the Battle of Britain. This increased to six Gruppen later.

Evidently, these units were:

II./Z.G. 26,
III./Z.G. 26,
II./Z.G. 76,
Erpr.Gr. 210

This represented about half of the Bf 110 strenght in the Battle, so one can say the 110 just as typically had 601N, not the 601A we have during the Battle. Yet there's no 110C w. 601N modelled.


* Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 19 July 1940
Notes 3 Gruppen of Bf 110, 1 Gruppe of 109 had been converted to DB 601N engines.

* Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 19 October 1940
DB 601N is in short supply, therefore existing production is to be used in:
-all new production Bf 109F-1, F-2
-all new production Bf 110C produced by Mtt AG, in order to keep the strenght of the existing 4 Gruppen of DB 601N converted Bf 110 units up.

So evidently a fourth 110 Wing was converted in the meantime.

* Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 29 October 1940

'four DB 601N conveted Bf 110 Gruppen (Wings), only one Bf 109'

* Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on 8 November 1940

In order to free up DB 601Ns for Bf 109s, the November/December production run of Bf 110s will receive DB 601A instead of 601N.

The following will receive DB 601N:

- final, closing series of Bf 109E (ie. E-7 - KF)
- replacement engines for III./Z.G. 26, Erpr.Gr. 210

Due to shortage of 601N engines, II./Z.G. 26, II./Z.G. 76 will receive only 601A replacemnts. The production of 601N in Janaury will be significantly higher, so 110s can be switched back to the 601N.

As of 1 January 1941 the following number of 'active' (ie. built into a frontline aircraft) 601N engines were reported by units (note: engine count! Each 110 has two engines of course!)

in Bf 109s
Bf 109E-1 : 16 pcs,
Bf 109E-3 : 1 pc,
Bf 109E-4 : 54 pcs,
Bf 109E-6 : 1 pc,
Bf 109E-7 : 34 pcs,
Bf 109E-8 : 2pcs.
Bf 109F-1 : 5 pcs.

Bf 110C-1: 4 Stück
Bf 110C-4: 40 Stück
Bf 110C-5: 12 Stück
Bf 110C-7: 14 Stück
Bf 110D-0: 18 Stück
Bf 110D-2: 20 Stück
Bf 110D-3: 8 Stück
Bf 110E-1: 176 Stück
Bf 110E-2: 14 Stück
total. 306 pieces

ie. 153 Bf 110s.

He 111P : 8 pcs,
Do 215 : 68 pcs

In total 6 Gruppen Bf 110 were reported to have been fitted with 601N.
No new 110-Gruppe is planned to have 601Ns until 1 April 1941.


See also http://www.yogysoft.de/pawel/zerstoerer/001.html , probably taken from Mankau-Petrick's Bf 110, 210, 410 book.

[Remo]

Originally Posted by Viper2000

Thanks Remo. I'm amazed you can even get to 5 km; I start getting engine trouble at rather lower altitudes.

Got her up to 6700m with a lot of constant tweaking of prop pitch + throttle and lots of fuel burned. I'm sure I can break 7000m it will take well over 30minutes though..

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

If it happens during normal flight (for example, smoothly cruising from point A to B) it's a bug, but i haven't experienced it so far.

If it happens only after violent maneuvers it's not a bug, it happens with all the planes in the sim and it's due to the gyros driving the instruments tumbling. If you fly straight and level for 5 minutes or so it will recover.

Does a low G turn (banking approx 45deg ) count as violent maneuvers ?
Also I think I noticed this after the high speed flutter after 500km/h, I'll keep an eye out for this next time. Will also see if things settle down after 5min, (I'm pretty sure I flew much longer than that , but then I was not concentrating on that particular problem so it might have reset properly after 5min.. ), will keep an eye in this.

[Remo]

7000m do seems to be the limit, the problem being that from 6900m to 7000m the ata takes a sudden drop from 0.95 to 0.9 and goes lower as you go over 7000m (maxed her at around 7150) ata was around 0.85.
In essence I could not get her is a stable level flight at 7000m, without elevator input, and with more that 400L petrol she don't like it up there at all.

7000m max speed .. 210-230km/h (IAS)
6900m max speed at level flight , 260km/h (IAS).
6800m max speed at level flight , 290km/h (IAS).
(CEM on full)
(Speeds was with +- 250L petrol left in tank , it takes a long long time to get her up there, and I played around with different prob settings at 7000m for a long time to come to the conclusion that she wont stay up at 7000m without a fight )