More on epilepsy in Cliffs of Dover

[Chivas]

WOP avoided epilepsy by putting a big green filter on everything to fade out any contrast.

[Buzzer]

Amazed to read this. -10fps is a lot.
Tons of first-person-shooters must be a lot worse epileptic vice than a flight-sim. A warning is good enough there.

Make this optional, please!
Unbelieveable...

[Kikuchiyo]

Originally Posted by gibxxi

To Luthier & Oleg et al;

Sorry to say this after you've produced what looks to be the most exciting development in flight sim gaming for some time, but you've made a BAD mistake implementing this filter, and I'll tell you why.

Firstly, the whole issue has "knee-jerk reaction" written all over it. Due to one isolated case of photo-sensitive epilepsy, you've now neutered a game for 3/4 of the worlds potential players over a perceived risk that will, at-best affect 0.01% of that same population. And even if such cases do arise, which undoubtedly they will, will be very unlikely to result in serious injury or death in all but the most unusual or freakish of situations. And I can't see any judge awarding in favour of a plaintiff who disregarded or ignored suitable warnings.

I understand why you've done it. With the discovery coming so close to release date, you've implemented this quick fix (which I'd prefer to call a nasty hack), but your time over the last month would of been much better spent contacting Ubisoft's legal department to see how the laws stand in countries where the game is to be released.

Also, being Russian, and therefore not used to European / American / Western laws, I can also see how the fear of being sued into oblivion would prompt you to take some action. However the notion you provide that this filter cannot be made optional due to the risk of being sued is fundamentally flawed.

In the UK, AFAIK, the ONLY requirement for any product that may induce photo-sensitive epilepsy is that a disclaimer notifying users of the potential dangers is prominently displayed. Be it either in the packaging, or within the program. There are no lawful provisions in this country (yet) that make such a filter a mandatory requirement. Nor can i envisage a situation where any such law would be passed.

As to the poster who commented about the possibility of their child wandering into the room and suffering an attack by accident; that is scaremongering at best, and clutching at straws at worst. As a responsible adult and a parent, it is my responsibility to be aware of the risks to my child and therefore protect him from them. For example, keeping chemicals & medicines out of his reach are two prime examples. The law does not mandate that I must not or cannot use said medicines or chemicals because I have children. To do so would be health & safety gone mad. Being a safety rep at my place of work I'm well aware of how health & safety law applies in the workplace as well as in the home.

Take another point which I've often used to argue that these companies that offer "no-win-no-fee" cases to people ought to be themselves outlawed; If I'm walking along the high street and trip on a uneven flagstone, I should not be able to then sue my local council for damages because I was too inept / blind / stupid to be looking where I was walking in the first place. As long as the council at least followed the laws of the land to ensure my reasonable safety, the rest of the responsibility lies with me as a somewhat mature, rational, responsible adult.

Claims culture is a method of greed by people to obtain money under false pretences for injuries to which they were too ignorant to take the risks into account for themselves. The majority of sane, responsible adults should not be made to pay for the idiotic actions of those who are determined to injure themselves despite warnings and precautions put in place to protect them.

All that would be required if this issue did present any significant risk, would be to up the age restriction to 18's and over and as I've already said provide a disclaimer, and as some companies do, list measures how such risks of seizure can be avoided WITHOUT neutering the game from the get go.

I can tell you one law that will hurt you more than any perceived damage from Epilepsy. It's called the Sale of Goods Act. The product has to be fit for the purpose for which it was designed, and must be able to run according to the specifications that are published along with it. If I were Maddox games I'd be more worried by people suing me over the reduction in performance this filter brings with it, rather than the minuscule chance of an adverse epileptic reaction. It doesn't matter if patches are later released to "address" this issue. If the game is released on the 31st across the West, unable to be run on the specifications you as developers, and Ubisoft as publishers have mandated, you'll lose a hell of a lot more money in returns, cancellations and court cases than all the seizure court cases that would ever likely to be brought against you.

I don't see Call of Duty shipping with a mandatory filter. The only differences i can see aside from one being simulator and one FPS, is that one is at ground-level so there are less strikingly contrasting colours suddenly appearing, even when there are flashes and such like. White muzzle flashes, prop discs, debris are of course going to be more noticeable on a flight sim at 20,000ft, it goes without saying. And anyone with half a brain in their head will realize this too, however that does not excuse neutering or removing features because of it.

Kudos to Luthier for having the balls to confess to the origin and nature of such a filter. I do wonder if he would of been so forthcoming with the information had it not surfaced on the Russian forums first though. But either way you look at it, this is a rushed hack job that was shoe-horned in to keep the release on schedule. But the only mistake was not allowing responsible adult gamers the ability to CHOOSE for themselves what risks they wish to subject them or their immediate family to. You dropped the ball here guys.

It won't tempt me to cancel my pre-order, but be prepared for some very long-lasting negative feedback around the globe if this decision isn't rectified / reversed quickly. A scandal is what it will very likely turn into otherwise.

Your points would be valid except for the fact that the Western publisher (Ubisoft) said implement it or we won't publish it. We can say "publish yourselves" all we want, but we don't know about any contractual agreements, or the publishing capacity of 1C Publishing as a whole. In the end we are getting what is contractually and physically possible by 1C Maddox. They have said they are working to correct the FPS issue and I for one am going to believe them. They aren't saying they are going to remove realism features, but correct them to fall within acceptable standards to prevent potential epileptic episodes in potential users. I do not believe that this means that realistic representation will be discernible from the mildly edited version.

I live in NA so I also have the advantage of an extra months worth of patches and fixes before I have to concern myself with release day bugs.

[addman]

Originally Posted by Buzzer

Amazed to read this. -10fps is a lot.
Tons of first-person-shooters must be a lot worse epileptic vice than a flight-sim. A warning is good enough there.

Make this optional, please!
Unbelieveable...

Yeah, unbelievable...can't find words. This is so stupid that I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around it. Like 6 years in development and such an anti-climax. It all sounds so amateurish too, "oh! it was in the last minute we found out yadi yadi yada". If this game fails it's NOT because of the fact that people didn't buy the game, this is ALL on the developers. After following Oleg and IL-2 for over 10 years it really tears me up saying this.

[Bwaze]

The dog ate our code. Honestly!

It really sounds like that type of excuse...

[rfxcasey]

Originally Posted by House M.D.

Epilepsy can happen later - even after a hit in your head when falling down from the stairs or your bike.
You just don't know when it'll come.

Oh great......Now we have to ban bicycles and stairs too! You should have never said anything as they hadn't thought of this till you brought it up.

Seriously though, have you ever seen emergency lights and strobing flashers used on police cars and ambulances in the US? If anything is going to induce an epileptic seizure its that. Especially in drivers passing the scene of the crime/accident at night. Total facacta bologna if you axe me.

[Kikuchiyo]

Originally Posted by Bwaze

The dog ate our code. Honestly!

It really sounds like that type of excuse...

[Poe's Law] I have to concur. This development team has such a long history of deceiving this community that I must take the word of the over-reactionary/naysayer/doubtful aspects of this communities word over the developers. These issues will never be fixed, and they are obviously out to rob us of our hard earned money as they have done so much in the past. How can we possibly trust them at their word?[/Poe's Law]

Give it time see what comes before you pass judgement.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

[Coen020]

Originally Posted by rfxcasey

Oh great......Now we have to ban bicycles and stairs too! You should have never said anything as they hadn't thought of this till you brought it up.

Seriously though, have you ever seen emergency lights and strobing flashers used on police cars and ambulances in the US? If anything is going to induce an epileptic seizure its that. Especially in drivers passing the scene of the crime/accident at night. Total facacta bologna if you axe me.

You see a lot of policecar light do you?
are you perhaps ... a crook?

[HundertneunGustav]

dont worry about epilepsy for me... if i can at some point get rid of it in some way, i will turn this epilepsy protection off. Bring on thebangs and lightnings, shockwaves and hazardeous flashes...

[6S.Maraz]

Originally Posted by Sutts

"Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes."

That sounds like a shed load of features that need to be made unrealistic to satisfy this ridiculous ruling. I want to see a realistic representation of propellor motion. I want to be dazzled by the sun off the canopy in a dogfight. I want to see realistic muzzle and bomb flashes.

I agree !!
Is this the first flight simulator ever? No, it is not.
Do other flight simulators like RoF, Lock-On, etc. have blurred low-fps graphics due to epilepsy problem? No, they do not.

I just hope that the Russian version can be sold in the rest of the world and switched to English... for the moment being, I will stick to old good IL-2:1946.

Maraz