Friday 2010-12-03 Dev. update and Discussion

[1.JaVA_Sjonnie]

Very nice FMB stuff here

Should I anticipate the next LLTM to feature SoW?

[kendo65]

I'm also thinking that triggers / scripting could be used in creative ways to reflect the use of 12 Group squadrons.

Admittedly, that won't give those who want to fly in one of the Duxford squadrons the experience that they want, but it could maybe reflect their role in the battle reasonably well?

[klem]

Originally Posted by kendo65

Hello Klem - I've taken the liberty of re-ordering elements of your post so that i can address the different issues a little more easily
...............

I generally agree with what you say. I'm not talking about change of Strategy. The Axis Strategy for defeating Britain was the destruction of the RAF through the air battle that became known as the BoB, to be followed by the landings in the SE. That would remain the Strategy.

The 12 Group Squadrons/Big Wing question was more a matter of Tactics. Should they have been thrown at the bomber formations wherever they could be found or used for defence of the 11 Group airfields (as they were - well, supposed to have been)? Would the former have resulted in an earlier more decisive victory over the LW and possibly even prevented the Blitz through the destruction of many more enemy a/c even though they had already bombed the airfields or would its non-protection of the airfields have left them devastated and inoperable on a larger scale and earlier than they were, leading to defeat of the RAF? Perhaps it became a moot point as soon as the LW switched to attacking London but if you were Herman Goering and had the benefit of hindsight you'd have kept attacking the airfields and then the case for how to use the Big Wing could have been critical and argued in either direction. At least we have the opportunity to try out both arguments.

So, back On Topic, a Duxford is going to be needed.

[kendo65]

But you're back into 'what if' scenarios again.

That was my main point before (someone else also made the same point talking about the campaign - as an individual pilot or even a squadron commander you have no real influence in those kinds of questions. You just follow the orders handed down from Group or higher level)

When flying a mission in il2 or SOW you will be given a briefing - your instructions - there is no lee-way. You don't get to choose what targets to attack and you don't get to say that your superior's strategy is rubbish.

The jump to allowing the player to decide targetting and strategy is really a jump to a different game (or a different level). It is something that was never in il2 for instance.

It seems that BOB will restrict a player to fulfilling the role of an individual pilot / squadron commander. You will take part in missions and endeavour through use of tactics and skill to succeed. You won't get to decide the strategy, targetting, etc. If you want a realistic campaign that reflects the experience of the real-life pilots then this is accurate.

If we want a sim that allows us to be Keith Park or Leigh Mallory I think we need a different game, or a massively expanded game that would include resource management elements (pilots, aircraft) and require the player to manage locations for squadrons along with targetting and how the squadrons are used.

Personally speaking, I would love to have a game that covered all of those levels. I just realise how big a leap beyond il2 that would be, and I don't think we're going to get it.

this has got off-topic somewhat, but it all comes out of the debate about the map - the type of game we are going to get determines the type of map we need

[dflion]

Originally Posted by kendo65

I'm also thinking that triggers / scripting could be used in creative ways to reflect the use of 12 Group squadrons.

Admittedly, that won't give those who want to fly in one of the Duxford squadrons the experience that they want, but it could maybe reflect their role in the battle reasonably well?

Looking at the full area of the BOB map, I think Oleg was in a real 'quandary' (difficult situation). If you move the map up to include Duxford (see map attached) you cut out the Normandy beachhead. I think the map size probably is limited (due to programming) and Oleg went to the maximum.

Kendo has given us the answer, using 'scripting' we can include 12 Group effectively in the the battle, though they would be in an 'airstart scenerio'.

Looking at the map I have attached, let's hope some 'budding map maker' will include 12 and 13 Group in a new map.

Let us all be thankful for what Oleg and his team have done and move on. I would be grateful for some more feedback on the FMB.

DFLion

[Sutts]

We've got to remember that the FMB is included in the package and with this we can create any type of mission we like. In this way we are acting a bit like a general aren't we?

With regards to Duxford, I'd like to know what happens when we fly off the map? I could be wrong but I seem to remember Oleg saying that the land masses of the entire globe are already in the engine...hence the edge of space views we were treated to once. This could mean that the entire UK is already in there but only populated with textures in the extreme south.

With this in mind it MAY be possible for modders in future to introduce a correctly placed Duxford, perhaps with limited terrain features depending on memory limits etc.

Just a thought.

[klem]

Originally Posted by Sutts

We've got to remember that the FMB is included in the package and with this we can create any type of mission we like. In this way we are acting a bit like a general aren't we?..............

kendo, this is my point. Missions can be created by us in which we can decide strategy, distribution of forces, tactics etc. We aren't a slave to the mission generator. But without the resources (Duxford for example) we can't meet the true extent of even just the defensive aspect of the BoB. We may have to settle for a poor fix, another airfield and routing 'rules' to represent Duxford but it's not very realistic and I'd like to know what Oleg thinks.

If anyone is thinking 'realism fanatic' or 'that's way beyond IL-2', well, that's what I expect from a 21st century simulation that has taken over 6 years to create. A massive amount of work has gone into the FMs, FMB, getting the aircraft, vehicles and the grass looking right etc., but not even having an appropriate map is a bit fundamental.

Picking up on DFLion's thoughts on map size restrictions, what happens when we get to the 8th Air Force bombing campaign stretching from England to Berlin? I don't suppose many people will want to sit in a B17 for 4 hours (a scaled down 8hrs?) but that has been done in other air war games. It's a subject for the future but the map size question is likely to arise again.

[Asheshouse]

The map "edge" has to occur somewhere. I think the limits Oleg has chosen are sufficiently large to allow a lot of flexibility in mission building and will keep the majority happy for some time.

I would be interested in knowing whether the coastlines will continue at low resolution beyond the map edge. As mentioned earlier OM has said that the game engine can model the entire globe. This will give a much better view at high altitude than the existing IL2 effect at the map edge.

It s a shame that important sites like Duxford have been left out but I can understand why. On the southern coast I would have preferred to see the line drawn west of Weymouth (Portland), which was the scene of attacks in the Channel Phase. -- but I guess since we have Southampton and Portsmouth we cant complain.

Not having the correct airfields for the Regia Aeronatica seems like a more important omission since we will have their aircraft. -- but then again we are getting a Gloster Gladiator. They were based in the West Country, well off the map. On balance the more aircraft the better.

[winny]

I just wanted to add some facts to this really.


12 Group
As of 1st August 1940 (and most of July) there was only 1 Spitfire Squadron based at Duxford and they flew out of Fowlmere. There was no fighter sqn scrambling out of Duxford as the sqn would fly to Fowlmere early in the morning and were actually scrambled from there.

At this time Bader was flying out of Cottishall which had 1 Spitfire Sqn and 1 Hurricane Sqn. Digby had the same. Of the 32 times which the 'big wing' tactic was ordered up it resulted in combat 7 times.

303 Sqns first kill was 30th August, 2 months after the start of the BoB.
they were stationed at Northholt.

As of the 1st September there was still only 1 Spitfire Sqn at Duxford, but again they were moved forward in the mornings to Fowlmere.
The only sqn actually scrambling from Duxford was 310 (Czech).

Duxford was not an important base during the BoB.

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by klem

kendo, this is my point. Missions can be created by us in which we can decide strategy, distribution of forces, tactics etc. We aren't a slave to the mission generator. But without the resources (Duxford for example) we can't meet the true extent of even just the defensive aspect of the BoB. We may have to settle for a poor fix, another airfield and routing 'rules' to represent Duxford but it's not very realistic and I'd like to know what Oleg thinks.

...

You and Sutts have a fair point there and I actually agree with you. I think a lot of my criticism was about the 'what ifs' and setting strategy aspects that i didn't think was realistically going to be achievable in the campaign - and that the impact of 12 Group in this area could be reflected in other ways.

But, yes, it's a shame we won't be able to script our own missions to simulate being a part of the 'Big Wing' (frustrating experience that I suspect that would be ). But some people may also feel it's a shame not to be able to try (at least once) the German raids from Norway, with maybe slightly changed tactics. People have commented on the Italian bases too. I'm not sure if the restricted map size in this instance is mainly down to the limits of current PC specs or about Oleg's resources/time limits in creating it.

Winny raises some interesting points too.

Good point about future 8th AF situations. I guess that a way will have to be found eventually and I'm sure we'll see things progress and the issues will be solved.

Unfortunately, for now though, no Duxford.