Uniforms and ranks and medals!

[philip.ed]

The sidcot suit is not a sheepskin jacket.
The 'Irvin' jacket is the sheepskin one, made by a number of contracts, most notably Irvin.
The Sidcot suit was developed by Frederick Sidney Cotton OBE (17 June 1894 – 13 February 1969) around 1917 time (IIRC). the pattern in use during the BoB was the 1930 pattern.
Not many fighter pilots wore either in the battle, although many wore the Irvin jacket during the BoF, and Bader notably wore the Sidcot suit.

Does Luthier need all this info? I sent Oleg pages of the stuff, and I detailed each specific item of kit available at the time

[peterwoods@supanet.com]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

Battledress wasn't worn!!!! .

Philip, I'm inclined to agree that War Service Dress (aka Battledress) was probably not worn during the BoB dates but included reference to it since SOW is expected to cover complete WWII period.

War service dress was introduced in 1940 as a blue/grey version of the British Army's battle dress. Initially, war service dress was only worn by air crew. However, in 1943, its use was authorised for all ranks and trades. War service dress continued to be worn after the end of World War II. It was significantly altered in 1948 and not phased out until 1973.

Pete

[peterwoods@supanet.com]

Battledress Trial reported in 30th May 1940 issue of Flight magazine .



Don't know when first issues made but it seems clear that, although the "erks" got to comment for the trial, until 1943 it was only issued to aircrew.

Pete

[Former_Older]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

Does Luthier need all this info? I sent Oleg pages of the stuff, and I detailed each specific item of kit available at the time

No harm in sending it again is my view!

[Friendly_flyer]

Here's a nice shot of the CO of no. 19 Squ, Brian Lane, taken at Fowlmere during the high tide of the Battle of Britain:



I guess this is the picture philip.ed was referring to when he mentioned Brian Lane wearing the prototype battledress? The fabric of the jacket seem to be different from the service dress jacket worn by the pilot on the right.

As for what was worn in the air, this picture of Bader and the rest of no. 242 Squ indicate that dress code for flying was not very strict:

[peterwoods@supanet.com]

Originally Posted by Friendly_flyer

The fabric of the jacket seem to be different from the service dress jacket worn by the pilot on the right.

The pilot on the right is Flt Sgt "Grumpy" Unwin. As an airman his No1 SD jacket is made from serge, not the barathea that officers uniforms were made from.

Philip could be correct in saying that the Sqn Ldr's is a prototype.

Thanks for the reminder though, I had forgotten that photo of Sqn Ldr Lane. You wouldn't think to look at him that he was 23 years old at that time.

Pete

[philip.ed]

Yes, he's wearing the prototype, and as far as fellow collectors and I have agreed, the only type of battldress worn during the BoB. It may have been trialled, but I think it was only later sent to stores. Of course post-BoB is another matter, but currently I think sending kit references which exceed the BoB date would just confuse the team into modelling this type for the BoB.
I've already seen examples where the team has used post-BoB kit (type 21 microphone modelled, mark VIII goggles shown in a poster for the game etc)

It's also worth noting the differences in the Other Ranks and officer's uniforms: material (as you say), also the officers tunics had buttons on the two lower 'flap' pockets which the Other Ranks' versions didn't have. Of course the rank insignia was different, and the Officer's would have a tailored cut.
Let's be honest, modelling all these differences would just be a lot of time spent pleasing a minority of people it's still useful for the future, I suppose.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

The sidcot suit is not a sheepskin jacket.
The 'Irvin' jacket is the sheepskin one, made by a number of contracts, most notably Irvin.
The Sidcot suit was developed by Frederick Sidney Cotton OBE (17 June 1894 – 13 February 1969) around 1917 time (IIRC). the pattern in use during the BoB was the 1930 pattern.
Not many fighter pilots wore either in the battle, although many wore the Irvin jacket during the BoF, and Bader notably wore the Sidcot suit.

Does Luthier need all this info? I sent Oleg pages of the stuff, and I detailed each specific item of kit available at the time

Roger that Phil, late night post, the old grey matter not quite the instant recall storage device it once was! Yes i did indeed mean Irvin, not Sidcot in reference to the jacket.

What prompted my point was a lot of screenies showing our Spit/Hurri pilots ensconced in the Irvin jacket in their a/c; I'm trying to find the book - it's here somewhere *rummage* - for the actual quote which prompted my statement.

Seemed an appropriate time to bring it up, discussion on uniforms and such.

[philip.ed]

Yes, sorry if I sounded aggressive mate 'Poor' British weather creating too much trouble hehehe
Yes, I hear you mate. I, too, have read accounts that said how the Irvin was just not suitable for fighter use (unless the weather really was that cold). Although it gets cold upstairs, the Irvin limits head-movement, as you said, which is essential in combat.
In one of Derek Robinson's books, he suggests that the pilots cut the collars off, but I believe this to be a myth. I doubt they'd have wanted to do this to such a prized item anyway
The BoB was quite hot, and many apparently flew in shirts...
Can any flyers comment on this? would this have been unbearably cold, even in the hot summer? I'm not sure whether this is true, or a myth, as many pictures were staged.

[SlipBall]

I would guess that the cockpit would be quite warm, sitting behind that big engine. Plus sunlight tends to heat up such a small area quickly, I experienced this and its a heat wave for sure. Add to this any kind of action, then you would wish to be in a t-shirt.