Friday 2010-11-19 Dev. update and Discussion

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by He111

What are you raving about toss-pot? It was all in the doco, at the end of the war when all the allies marched in Victory celebrations, the Poles were not allowed to, thanks to Churchill who was scared of annoying the soviets. It's very sad that the Poles proved themselves more than adequate in the BOB but few are willing to acknowledge that! You have a serious attitude problem.

What is this doco you refer to? And who doesn't recognise how good the Poles were in the BoB - they were among the best pilots with the most experience, and anyone in Britain who knows anything about the war is aware of that (have you seen the film BoB?).

What exactly are you suggesting that Churchill did wrong?

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

What is this doco you refer to? And who doesn't recognise how good the Poles were in the BoB - they were among the best pilots with the most experience, and anyone in Britain who knows anything about the war is aware of that (have you seen the film BoB?).

What exactly are you suggesting that Churchill did wrong?

Not wanting to inflame yet another slanging match, but I saw the documentary. It was part of a series showing the importance of the participation of foreign nationals in many of Britain's conflicts throughout history. Quite well done and informative.

It discussed the diplomatic embarrassment of Churchill, having commited in 1940 to restoring all European borders and governments, being unable to do so in the case of the subsequent 'Eastern Bloc' including Poland.
He's correct in that the Poles were not allowed to participate in the Victory marches, in spite of their outstanding contribution to the overall victory.
A sad circumstance brought about by diplomatic failures. I don't think He111 suggested that the Cold War should have been warmed up a bit, just that it was sad about the ignoring of the Poles at the parades.

I also don't think anyone with any knowledge of WWII worth speaking of would either underestimate or belittle the Poles from any perspective.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

It discussed the diplomatic embarrassment of Churchill, having commited in 1940 to restoring all European borders and governments, being unable to do so in the case of the subsequent 'Eastern Bloc' including Poland.
He's correct in that the Poles were not allowed to participate in the Victory marches, in spite of their outstanding contribution to the overall victory.
A sad circumstance brought about by diplomatic failures.

Ah, you mean the Poles living in Britain. It's a bit of an understatement that the poles got a bad deal in general, but I think complaining about Churchill is just a bit silly. He didn't have to declare war on Germany at all, he could have easily remained neutral, along with a bundle of other European nations. It would have been better for the British people (less death, less destruction, less hardship, more money). It's difficlut to overstate how stupid British diplomats were following the war, footing such a large bill for it all.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

Ah, you mean the Poles living in Britain. It's a bit of an understatement that the poles got a bad deal in general, but I think complaining about Churchill is just a bit silly. He didn't have to declare war on Germany at all, he could have easily remained neutral, along with a bundle of other European nations. It would have been better for the British people (less death, less destruction, less hardship, more money). It's difficlut to overstate how stupid British diplomats were following the war, footing such a large bill for it all.

Well, actually it wasn't Churchill who declared war, it was Chamberlain, although Churchill had advocated gearing up for action since before the re-militarisation of the Rhineland.
I'd say the Allied diplomats were stymied, rather than stupid, but you're certainly correct about us 'footing the bill'.
On the other hand 'victory at all costs, no matter how long and hard the road may be' may have included the financial cost, which of course bankrupted the Empire Churchill loved so much. A price he was prepared to pay to see the downfall of 'a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime'.
Thinking about the society we now 'enjoy', I often wonder what he'd think of it.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

Well, actually it wasn't Churchill who declared war, it was Chamberlain, although Churchill had advocated gearing up for action since before the re-militarisation of the Rhineland.
I'd say the Allied diplomats were stymied, rather than stupid, but you're certainly correct about us 'footing the bill'.
On the other hand 'victory at all costs, no matter how long and hard the road may be' may have included the financial cost, which of course bankrupted the Empire Churchill loved so much. A price he was prepared to pay to see the downfall of 'a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime'.
Thinking about the society we now 'enjoy', I often wonder what he'd think of it.

Precisely, which is what angers me so much about idiotic viewpoints like He111 expressed. The cost to the UK to fight Germany was a massive price, and I'm not talking about money alone. When I look back on it after hearing these sorts of comments a part of me just asks why we just didn't bother and let Hitler cut up Poland for good while we made hay from it all instead. Of course there was so much evil going on that would've been morally contemptible so not withstanding the political position of a strong German empire we did what was right - but it's not enough for some Poles, they are bitter about why we didn't do anything about Stalins massive army Ultimately Poland was simply a weak nation that we stood by as best we could. Maybe if the Poland weren't so keen on handing themselves a Baltic port after WW1 and carving Germany in two and upsetting their other neighbours by taking their territory from 1918-21 then perhaps they would've been bypassed in the first place.

[csThor]

Hardly. In the eyes of many germans Poland was simply a ... pardon the term ... bastard state which existed solely by the grace of the Entente and which contained areas many germans considered ur-german. And this wasn't just the opinion of the right-wing extremists but many conservative and even center to left-leaning ones. Or should I remind you that it was the Entente who declared that Upper Silesia was to be given to Poland despite a 59,4% pro-german vote in a plebiscite in 1922 (a remarkable vote given that many non-german nationals seem to have voted for Germany, too)?

[Igo kyu]

While all of that is probably fine (meaning I'm not up enough on the history to question it), what did get in Churchill's craw as I understand it, was having to send the Poles who survived fighting for us in the BoB home to Stalin's tender mercies, and often life in Gulags for fighting for "the enemy". I don't know what the numbers are, but that isn't something I'm happy about, if it happened to one that's one too many.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by csThor

Hardly. In the eyes of many germans Poland was simply a ... pardon the term ... bastard state which existed solely by the grace of the Entente and which contained areas many germans considered ur-german. And this wasn't just the opinion of the right-wing extremists but many conservative and even center to left-leaning ones. Or should I remind you that it was the Entente who declared that Upper Silesia was to be given to Poland despite a 59,4% pro-german vote in a plebiscite in 1922 (a remarkable vote given that many non-german nationals seem to have voted for Germany, too)?

The fact that the decided borders were enough to cause problems later on is what matters. I think you agree anyway, you are also saying that the inhabitants didn't want it, but since they where on the losing side then they don't get to decide anyway, especially by opinion polls conducted years after the borders are drawn.

I would have though the corridor to the coast was more of a thorn to Germany than former Austrian territories in the south though.

[LukeFF]

FFS, can we please stay on topic for once in our lives? This topic is to discuss the latest dev update for SoW, not about Polish-British relations during the war. If it's that important of a topic to discuss, then create a new thread and discuss it there.

[FS~Lewis]

Big Thanks....Mick...Phillip.Ed...