When/what should we post in an Oleg Update thread, and when/what we shouldn't

[Blackdog_kt]

Actually i think that as long as discussing the update or certain features (known/unknown/possible/wishlist), anything should be fair game.

Most of the times discussion devolves into point scoring matches between people because they can't accept a different opinion, not because of the points made.

In that sense, saying the clouds are fantastic is just as fine as saying they look bad to you. This is ok to do.

Saying they suck is just like saying that people who don't like them are blind. This is rude and not ok, regardless to whom it is directed (developers or community members).

Jumping on people's throats for saying either of the two is definitely not ok and it's the biggest issue. Even long time forum regulars get caught out by this, especially when responding to a comment that was delivered in a rude way. For example, if someone says he thinks the clouds need work another guy might chime in to say they look fine to him, but if the 1st guy says they suck then the 2nd guy is all the more likely to get sucked into an argument that turns personal.

So, to keep it brief:

1) Give your opinion in a polite manner.

2) Accept opinions different to your own as being another member's personal taste and not a case of right or wrong, especially if they are not rude.

3) The most important point of all. Don't get offensive with people you disagree with or who are being rude themselves. If you are offended, take it up with a moderator or the other guy via PMs, or state your position in a diplomatic fashion on the main thread. You can put people in their place without cursing and if they do keep being confrontational they end up looking like idiots, not you.

State your opinion but give them the benefit of doubt.
Don't tell a guy he's an internet fascist, tell him he seems to have trouble accepting different opinions.
Don't tell a guy he's blind, tell him that in your personal interpretation that screenshot looks different.
Don't tell a guy he's asking for useless stuff, tell him about the other features you'd be more interested in and aknowledge that all is subject to hardware compromises.

In short, don't assume an air of superiority, don't pretend your opinion somehow values more, don't act like you know it all, don't act like you know what the developers think or consider useful, don't act like the arbiter of what's worthwhile and what's not to post about, don't pretend to represent others (developers or community members) or speak on their behalf and finally, don't pound the other guy's opinion to the ground and get him all defensive and arguing when you can simply state your own view on things

This is how all these circular arguments start. Someone posts something, anything, and before long there is someone else who disagrees but instead of trying to debate the opinion he sets off trying to ridicule the person instead, from which point on it just goes downhill.

I think what's posted in the update threads is 95% within what should be posted. It's usually the delivery and the level of tolerance that are lacking.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

My (very) personal view is that updates should mainly be for the developers to post, and for us to give reaction, whether it be praise, criticism or a question.

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

In that sense, saying the clouds are fantastic is just as fine as saying they look bad to you. This is ok to do.

Saying they suck is just like saying that people who don't like them are blind. This is rude and not ok, regardless to whom it is directed (developers or community members).

Jumping on people's throats for saying either of the two is definitely not ok and it's the biggest issue.

I share these views. Praise, criticism (polite), questions, or links to answers. That's it.

If you are offended, take it up with a moderator or the other guy via PMs, or state your position in a diplomatic fashion on the main thread. You can put people in their place without cursing and if they do keep being confrontational they end up looking like idiots, not you.

Actually, I don't think we should allow users trying to put others in their place at all, as it just goes downhill from there (only my opinion). If someone says they hate the clouds, but you love them, just post your praise, eg, "personally Oleg I love the clouds, looks like a typical British storm" etc, and leave it at that.

I agree with many of your ideas about us all trying to not talk as if we're in a better position to comment than others, but I think that's too hard for people to do.

But regardless of the way I'd like to see it done, it would just be good if the moderators made a decision, and put it in a sticky - this is what you can/can't write in an update thread, anything else will be removed. Because the way it is now, there's too much arguing (even if it is only 5%, I see that as too much), and we run the risk of the development team getting so fed up they stop either giving us updates, or allowing any questions.

[kimosabi]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I think what's posted in the update threads is 95% within what should be posted. It's usually the delivery and the level of tolerance that are lacking.

Totally agree. Internet anonymity does strange things to many people.

[klem]

Only ask questions that are relevant to Oleg's Update thread (see below for other questions)

Ask Oleg to lock his update thread and open another for our questions/discussions with his answers back in his thread, quoting the question. Stops us stamping all over Oleg's posts. Keeps it clean and easy to follow.

Title your post "A Question for Oleg" when you are asking a question so that Oleg can find them easily. Do not do that on other posts.

Keep to the inter-personal guidelines posted in this thread: ask questions, be informative, be helpful, by all means discuss politely, accept that others may post a different view and don't turn it into an argument. Use 'ignore' on persistent offenders.

Revive "Oleg's Questions" for questions not covered by Updates or earlier posts and conduct it the same way as described above.

Anyone want to volunteer to create a locked FAQs from his answers?
(I can't)

[Splitter]

We are over complicating this.

Just write your posts thinking that you are facing the other person and that they could punch you in the mouth for being rude .

It's often not what is said but HOW it is said.

Really, that's what is missing on this forum and on nearly every other internet forum. People feel anonymous and safe sitting behind their keyboard. They will say things on the internet that they would never say to your face....or they would figure out a much better way to say it to your face anyway. These are the same people that cut you off in traffic and flip you the bird while doing it....they feel perfectly secure in their two tons of vehicle.

Such attitudes show a person's true character.

I swear, when it suddenly became socially unacceptable to punch an idiot in the mouth society took a turn for the worse .

John Wayne in the Shootist: "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them."

Not a bad thing to keep in mind while posting....

Splitter

[philip.ed]

But why does that person have the right to take Oleg's mantle, or even the mantle of forum moderator, and say that you're post is rude, horrible, rubbish etc ? It might be, but leave that to Oleg to comment as then an argument will just entail. Or, better yet, PM them.

What do you think? I'd be happy to hear what's wrong with this, as topics like this are constructive as long as everyone is humble to eachother.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

But why does that person have the right to take Oleg's mantle, or even the mantle of forum moderator, and say that you're post is rude, horrible, rubbish etc ?

They don't. Also 'rude, horrible, rubbish' are entirely subjective terms equally applicable to most politicians.

Just don't rise to the bait.

[kimosabi]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Really, that's what is missing on this forum and on nearly every other internet forum. People feel anonymous and safe sitting behind their keyboard. They will say things on the internet that they would never say to your face....or they would figure out a much better way to say it to your face anyway. These are the same people that cut you off in traffic and flip you the bird while doing it....they feel perfectly secure in their two tons of vehicle.

I'd have to disagree. I'm much more direct and argumentative IRL than on the internet. Well, I don't cut off people in traffic and flip them off but in my opinion, you can't compare the two.

[Spudkopf]

I think it all comes down to limits, it is OK to politely ask your “one or two” questions or make your on topic observations, if you are then fortunate enough to get an official response be greatful and accept that answer and do not then try to push for even more.

If due the language barrier you feel that the response may be not have fully addressed your querry/observation then maybe you just have to learn to accept this fact and move on.

If you still feel so passionate about a particular item then instead of harping on about continually in the update thread, move off and start a new thread where it can live or die on it’s own merits.

I truly believe that if the a subject is worthwhile then the community or the Dev’s will take notice.

Maybe it would also be courteous that before posting questions to at least try and do a forum search to see if the subject has already been addressed.

Sadly truth be known, self control is a virtue that appears to be sadly lacking here!

Lastly the deliberate negative and or obviously rude posts that are the catalyst for much of the issues should not be tolerated and removed.

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by kimosabi

I'd have to disagree. I'm much more direct and argumentative IRL than on the internet. Well, I don't cut off people in traffic and flip them off but in my opinion, you can't compare the two.

I think Splitter was referring to normal people, Mate. Not thinking people (In which category I [mostly] place you BTW ). Fortunately IMO flight sims tend to attract more of the latter than the former. Reason has, to the detriment of all society, gone out of fashion methinks.

If we reasonable people conspire to "ignore to death" the fools among us, things might take a turn for the better....it sure as hell beats joining them. (and I count myself amongst the guilty)