Bf110 Defensive Circle

[csThor]

I always thought that the Bf 110 was grossly misused in the BoB. With its relatively high speed and devastating armament it would have been more sensible to sent it on far-ranging fighter sweeps pretty much like the P-51 was used a few years later. It could have disrupted the stream of RAF squadrons forming up over their airfields, it could have made low-level strafing runs against airfields and it could have picked off stragglers and damaged aircraft trying to get back to their bases. It had the range, the speed and firepower to do so ... It was just used in the most pointless way one can think of.

There was one amusing scenario way back on the old german Warbirds server where I flew in a Bf 109 G-6 and we were supposed to escort Bf 110 G-2 packed for bomber hunting. Well, things didn't work out quite as planned ... the Bf 110s suddenly found themselves over an untidy gaggle of P-51s and when the contact reports came in we started sweating in our 109s. But then the chat buffer exploded with kill messages when, as one P-51 pilot called it afterwards, "it started raining 110s". I looked once at the kill messages, then twice ... then came a disbelieving "Am I seeing things? Those 110s killing the Mustangs?" And finally our whole 109 group was laughing via TeamSpeak. I think the Zerstörer guys got some fifteen or twenty P-51s in the process but no B-17.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Do You mean WarBirds:FH?

[csThor]

Neg, that was before FH. There was an old WB 2.01 server first by Netplayer, then by Tiscali/Gamesmania. It's been gone for years now.

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by csThor

I always thought that the Bf 110 was grossly misused in the BoB. With its relatively high speed and devastating armament it would have been more sensible to sent it on far-ranging fighter sweeps pretty much like the P-51 was used a few years later. It could have disrupted the stream of RAF squadrons forming up over their airfields, it could have made low-level strafing runs against airfields and it could have picked off stragglers and damaged aircraft trying to get back to their bases. It had the range, the speed and firepower to do so ... It was just used in the most pointless way one can think of.

There was one amusing scenario way back on the old german Warbirds server where I flew in a Bf 109 G-6 and we were supposed to escort Bf 110 G-2 packed for bomber hunting. Well, things didn't work out quite as planned ... the Bf 110s suddenly found themselves over an untidy gaggle of P-51s and when the contact reports came in we started sweating in our 109s. But then the chat buffer exploded with kill messages when, as one P-51 pilot called it afterwards, "it started raining 110s". I looked once at the kill messages, then twice ... then came a disbelieving "Am I seeing things? Those 110s killing the Mustangs?" And finally our whole 109 group was laughing via TeamSpeak. I think the Zerstörer guys got some fifteen or twenty P-51s in the process but no B-17.

To the above... Apparently the few times the Bf 110s were not assigned to escorts, plus Erp.Gr.210, they were rather successfull both air to ground and air to air. In a strategy game Eagle Day (and the redone, Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing The Reich), the Bf 110s are artifically forced to escort and bombing only(latter for just 2 units), because "it would be a game killer" if allowed to sweep or do free hunt.

[csThor]

I've got "Eagle Day" (or rather MatrixGames' remake combined with BTR) and I was pretty disappointed that I cannot really use "my" forces as I see fit.

*posturing on* I'm the Reichsmarschall, dammit! I can do whatever I like. *posturing off*

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Originally Posted by Erkki

To the above... Apparently the few times the Bf 110s were not assigned to escorts, plus Erp.Gr.210, they were rather successfull both air to ground and air to air.

Actually, "zerstorer" Bf110's dont needed escort.

"JaBo" was need escort always. In cases when they had no escort and had no air-to-air losses together with successfull mission - there were just no (or very little) RAF fighters precense.

Just remember 15.8.40 raid, when "Rubs" and all his Stab./Erpr.Gr210 were shot down (cowardly fighters of JG52 just left them treatly for death), or 27.9.40 event, when Bf110's of ZG26 were so much outnumbered that were no able to move inland and meet ErprGr210, when it came under attack of several RAF Sqdn's. Again, Gr.Kdr. and StaKa-2 were killed, together with other losses.

Bf110 JaBo were no need escort in 41-42 in Russia. But not in the Battle of Britain.

[Feuerfalke]

Originally Posted by csThor

I always thought that the Bf 110 was grossly misused in the BoB. With its relatively high speed and devastating armament it would have been more sensible to sent it on far-ranging fighter sweeps pretty much like the P-51 was used a few years later. It could have disrupted the stream of RAF squadrons forming up over their airfields, it could have made low-level strafing runs against airfields and it could have picked off stragglers and damaged aircraft trying to get back to their bases. It had the range, the speed and firepower to do so ... It was just used in the most pointless way one can think of.

Agreed. IMHO yet another example of what an idiot Hitler and his helpers were in using modern weapons right and to see the importance of weapons-development.
Hitler looked at WW2 from his little WW1 infantry experience and shaped all branches to support tanks and infantry. He didn't realize most of the potential of the technology at his hand or possibilities offered. Not to mention his poor ego ruining most crucial operations.

[swiss]

Well, it wasn't Hitler(he was an idiot anyway), but Göring and his staff.
Think of the supplies he promised for the Russia campaign; 500t airlift per day, no prob.
Couldn't even bring in 100t...
What an arrogant stupid fuçk.

[Avimimus]

It would be really nice to see more period and airplane specific tactics. It would also be nice to see the possibility of greater coordination by formations (eg. trying to outclimb other formations, regrouping, group turns etc.)

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Avimimus

It would be really nice to see more period and airplane specific tactics. It would also be nice to see the possibility of greater coordination by formations (eg. trying to outclimb other formations, regrouping, group turns etc.)

That's something i liked a lot back in the day when flying European Air War. The AI didn't really do it on their own, but that sim had a very good radio command system and you could do wonders with your own flight. For example, you could be leading a dozen P47s on an escort mission and split them up as you saw fit: four of them would be cruising slightly ahead of the bombers in a small sweep/early warning role and to break up head on attacks by enemy fighters, four more would be assigned to close escort at the back of the formation and your section would be flying above them all, able to see everything, direct the show and intervene wherever help was needed.

This was very satisfying because it gave you opportunities to win against greater enemy numbers by using good positioning. Suddenly, it wasn't all about shooting everything down, but it became about exercising crowd control against the enemy and preventing him from doing his job. Splitting the sections up that way, i could deny free reign to enemy fighters in all of their attack profiles by positioning wingmen in their way and whenever i saw tracers, i just dove down and attacked whatever enemy fighter managed to slip by them.

It's also a good illustration of how responsibilities change when moving up through the ranks, a flight leader needs to be able to see what happens and direct the action appropriately even more than being able to shoot down the enemy himself. It was like having a small strategy game within each mission, great fun.

I don't know if this could be done in SoW, because EAW's command system made heavy use of padlock.
For example, if you gave a "regroup" command it meant "stay close to me and carry on with the mission, engaging when necessary" (different to the disengage command, which prevented them from engaging). However, if you targetted one of the bombers you escorted and ordered a regroup for the third flight, it meant " the four of you, go on with the mission, aka escort, but do so in the vicinity of the friendly bomber i have targetted". This way, you could position a flight to cover the back of the bomber formation in close escort.

Since fewer and fewer people use padlock nowadays, maybe it would need a "cursor" function to have commands like that, eg by pressing shift a command cursor appears in the middle of my view. Then, while panning my view i can direct my wingmen to do what i want around a specific part of the sky or in relation to the position of other aircraft, friednly or enemy (ie, order them to "attack the left side of the enemy bomber formation", by holding shift and looking at it before pressing the "attack" command key). It would be cool, it wouldn't need padlock to be enabled and it would also be faster than sequencially going through all the targets by padlock, just look at where you want things to happen, hold the cursor modifier key and give the command. Especially with TrackIR and the cursor key assigned to a HOTAS button, it would be a breeze, fluid and fast.