Is there a fun style of expert play *other than* no-loss?

[Rhygadon]

So. I love both KB:TL and KB:AP, and I've enjoyed every HOMM game since the beginning (and even played the original KB, though the memories are very dim!). The Disciples series too.

One problem with all these games, though, is that if you're playing "seriously" (i.e. on high difficulty, and aiming for stringent goals like high scores or low completion times) they all collapse into a certain very finicky style of play, and in particular they all wind up requiring an emphasis on no- or nearly-no-loss battles.

This problem is particularly severe in KB, since even if you have plenty of money, replacement units may not be available, and even if they're available, traveling back across several continents to replace them is just *tedious*.

No-loss play is certainly fun, and gives that feeling of utter mastery. But it has at least two disadvantages: First, it's quite slow (more reloading, more scouting for unguarded resources, more extra turns spent delaying the end of a battle to dig up chests, kill small stacks with traps, &c.). Second, it narrows the range of fight experiences, since you never wind up fighting truly overwhelming enemies. The question you have to ask yourself before starting a fight is "can I dominate this opponent so completely that I emerge unscathed," rather than "do I have a chance of winning this fight at all?"

I also have this nagging feeling that no-loss play winds up narrowing the game, since many interesting spells/items/units just don't fit that style of play. (Most obvious are the units with powers triggered by loss of half the stack, but there are plenty of others.) Similarly, some choices (Resurrect, Inquisitor, Paladin, Sacrifice) become dominant almost regardless of your hero and army type.

So my question is: has anyone found a style of *interesting*, *challenging* play that doesn't involve such concern about losses? For example, I'm considering starting a game on Normal difficulty, but completely banning reloads and kiting, and using a chess clock or something to make myself play quickly during combat. Has anyone tried something like this?

Basically, I'm looking for a way to play that won't get me mired in the usual slow perfectionism. Any ideas?

[Zechnophobe]

Only use units level 1 to 3. It's a pretty decent challenge, that will also make you use a lot of units you've never touched before.

[bladeking77]

Well, how about this (Both for TL, and AP):

-First condition is that you play on Impossible.
-Second no Retreating, no Loading once you go trough a scenario you don't like (eg. you lose too much army, so you load and play better next time.) and no losing ( you can lose army, but not all of it, so you wouldn't get the Defeat screen. )
-No kiting of course.
-You can use any Spells, Items and units you like.

Remember the second condition, it is most important. That way you get a fair game. Once you're dead, you have to start over. You'll have to choose your opponents wisely.
That's how I played both of them, and it was fun every time.

[Rhygadon]

Originally Posted by bladeking77

Well, how about this (Both for TL, and AP):

-First condition is that you play on Impossible.
-Second no Retreating, no Loading once you go trough a scenario you don't like (eg. you lose too much army, so you load and play better next time.) and no losing ( you can lose army, but not all of it, so you wouldn't get the Defeat screen. )
-No kiting of course.
-You can use any Spells, Items and units you like.

I can see the theory behind this, and it makes sense, but I think I want to go in a different direction. Impossible+no-reload calls for careful, technical play, which is what I'm trying to get away from (though it's my natural style!).

I do think I'll adopt a ban on "scouting combats", though - in other words, no entering a fight just to see how tough it is or to test out a strategy, planning in advance to reload. I won't start a fight unless I plan to finish it.

[Rhygadon]

As for the ranged-combat army, that's what I was playing with recently, and I agree that it's fun and can be reasonably strong with enough +crit gear. (I went with hunters, archers, inquisitors, paladins, and either catapults or cannoneers depending on the situation.) One of the advantages of the ranged approach is that it gives you a surprising amount of freedom in how you use your spells. In some fights you can focus on direct-damage spells or buffing your attackers, and in others you focus more on disrupting the attackers' movement or distracting them with summons. So even though your own units are mostly just standing there and shooting, the fights have more variety than I had expected.

But then I found all the pieces of the Ogre set and decided to play with that, so now I'm stomping around with ogres, giants, shamans and assorted puny little human assistants. After all the cowardly ranged plinking, smashing things around with clubs has been quite satisfying!

[Rhygadon]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

Only use units level 1 to 3. It's a pretty decent challenge, that will also make you use a lot of units you've never touched before.

Hmm, I like this one. Most of my army designs seem to be defined by a few "key" high-level units, so this should shake up that pattern. It'll also make it possible to play around with some of that specialized unit-specific gear. And cheap/ubiquitous units should make re-stocking a bit less of a pain ...

[loreangelicus]

Originally Posted by Rhygadon

So. I love both KB:TL and KB:AP, and I've enjoyed every HOMM game since the beginning (and even played the original KB, though the memories are very dim!). The Disciples series too.

One problem with all these games, though, is that if you're playing "seriously" (i.e. on high difficulty, and aiming for stringent goals like high scores or low completion times) they all collapse into a certain very finicky style of play, and in particular they all wind up requiring an emphasis on no- or nearly-no-loss battles.

This problem is particularly severe in KB, since even if you have plenty of money, replacement units may not be available, and even if they're available, traveling back across several continents to replace them is just *tedious*.

No-loss play is certainly fun, and gives that feeling of utter mastery. But it has at least two disadvantages: First, it's quite slow (more reloading, more scouting for unguarded resources, more extra turns spent delaying the end of a battle to dig up chests, kill small stacks with traps, &c.). Second, it narrows the range of fight experiences, since you never wind up fighting truly overwhelming enemies. The question you have to ask yourself before starting a fight is "can I dominate this opponent so completely that I emerge unscathed," rather than "do I have a chance of winning this fight at all?"

I also have this nagging feeling that no-loss play winds up narrowing the game, since many interesting spells/items/units just don't fit that style of play. (Most obvious are the units with powers triggered by loss of half the stack, but there are plenty of others.) Similarly, some choices (Resurrect, Inquisitor, Paladin, Sacrifice) become dominant almost regardless of your hero and army type.

So my question is: has anyone found a style of *interesting*, *challenging* play that doesn't involve such concern about losses? For example, I'm considering starting a game on Normal difficulty, but completely banning reloads and kiting, and using a chess clock or something to make myself play quickly during combat. Has anyone tried something like this?

Basically, I'm looking for a way to play that won't get me mired in the usual slow perfectionism. Any ideas?

Hmmm... no-loss is not a requirement, but minimal losses is. Case in point, the final score doesn't even count no-losses, and you only need a certain number of no-loss victories to take advantage of a particular medal.

You did mentioned two disadvantages to no-loss, and I have to disagree with you on both.

First, while it may look that you have a slower game, you are actually saving time by not running around trying to replenish you troops. Sure, you could keep changing your lineup to what's available in the continent that you are in, but that means you can't build your items/skills to any specific army type, weakening your army and making battles harder/slower.

Second, no-loss doesn't mean kiting/collecting drops first/fighting the enemies from weakest to strongest. I have a no-loss impossible warrior game that I finished in 7 days; running around kiting/collecting drops first/fighting the enemies from weakest to strongest was not an option.

As for impossible/no-loss/high score games being confined to a particular playing style and troop type, this is partially correct only. The reason why players who play such games seem to use the same tactics/troops/play style is because some tactics/troops/play styles are simply superior/better over others. What makes them superior/better is that using them makes for an easier and faster game. For example, if I played with an army of level 1 movement 2 troops as a warrior and didn't use Resurrection/Sacrifice/Time Back at all, even if I didn't care about massive losses my game would be slow going indeed.

But no one here is restricted in how one wants to play the game; to each his/her own joy. I honestly believe everyone here ("serious" players included) plays KBAP to have fun; it's just that each one has one's own definition of "fun".

[MaroonMaurader]

I've never actually found a fight which I could win, but not win no-loss. If you restrict yourself to avoiding any infinite-mana loops, then I've had several fights like that. And I agree that those can be some of the most interesting.

As far alternative play-styles, have you considered playing with an all-shooter army? Some of the boss-fights will be near-impossible to do no-loss (I might not even bother trying), but overall your game will be significantly faster, and it would provide a very different style of play.

[Razorflame]

you can do all battles without loss with a single stack of any unit

best unit to use for this is EGD

invisiblty + spells from the mage = gg on enemy ^^

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by Razorflame

you can do all battles without loss with a single stack of any unit

best unit to use for this is EGD

invisiblty + spells from the mage = gg on enemy ^^

The trouble with Emerald Green Dragons is their quite low intiative/speed. Against some enemies, like Archdemons, you cannot act first with them. I am currently trying to beat Bhaal no-loss in The Legend, and he is very hard - due to his castle being on Lava terrain, all his demon troops have incredibly high defense for my Mage's army to fight against, even with the Demon-killer sword.