Civilians?

[AndyJWest]

Originally Posted by whatnot

A lot of threads seem to have a very similar lifecycle here these days:

1) A good (well personal preference ofcourse, but atleast feasible) idea is introduced
2) Someone envisions that even further, maybe even to unrealistic heights
3) A horde of unofficial resource controllers and priority polices hit the thread with "BOB is not a universe / farm / car / prison break / ground force / tree / cooking / whatever simulator! Stick to the essentials, resources are limited."
4) The original idea of the thread and the possible brainstorming around the topic slowly fades away

Interesting =)

Something that might have been 'a good idea' earlier in the SoW development cycle but that only gets suggested now is unlikely to be incorporated into the release version unless it needs minimal work, I'd have thought, and many of the suggestions are anything but simple. One of the 'resources' involved - possibly the most significant one - is development time. If 1C:Maddox were to incorporate even only the best 'good ideas' they'd risk never actually releasing anything - it is a darned sight easier to think of an idea than implement it.

You might argue 'include it in a later version' - well yes, but before you do that, at least see what version 1 actually does first.

And pointing out that resources are finite isn't 'policing', it is stating an elementary fact.

[artjunky]

Something that might have been 'a good idea' earlier in the SoW development cycle but that only gets suggested now is unlikely to be incorporated into the release version unless it needs minimal work, I'd have thought, and many of the suggestions are anything but simple. One of the 'resources' involved - possibly the most significant one - is development time. If 1C:Maddox were to incorporate even only the best 'good ideas' they'd risk never actually releasing anything - it is a darned sight easier to think of an idea than implement it.

You might argue 'include it in a later version' - well yes, but before you do that, at least see what version 1 actually does first.

And pointing out that resources are finite isn't 'policing', it is stating an elementary fact.

So you're saying this is a good idea if it was introduced earlier in development?

I suggested this idea about 6-7 years ago. This was WELL before there was even talk of BOB so I think you must agree this is possible.

I also remember when Flight Sims didn't have ANY ground objects and the same sort of people said the SAME sort of things. And now today "it's preposterous to suggest new ideas." And even though Oleg has told us, HIMSELF, that they plan to have civilian buses, that run on a path, people STILL insist that THEY are the arbiters of ALL good ideas.

For example, while some here will "Geek-out" on the climb ratio of the BF-109, I really couldn't care less about it. It's just not something that interests me but I understand that some people have different ideas that DON'T include scenery. What interests me in this sim is flying in a "realistic" environment. To me, civilians bring a level of realism that doesn't CURRENTLY exist.

If it's a bad idea, fine, argue on that merit. However, what people are REALLY saying is "don't make suggestions unless it's a suggestion "I" agree with. If I agree with the idea then they're TOTALLY possible."

Civilians in the sim are totally possible. Most likely, some executive somewhere made the choice and that was that.

As far as the position that people shouldn't use the Civilians in the Sim to make violent videos, well, I wonder if that means Legos should stop making civilian Legos because someone might make a YouTube Video of their Military Legos killing the "civilian" Lego sets.

[AndyJWest]

So you're saying this is a good idea if it was introduced earlier in development?

I wasn't commenting on any particular idea, I was responding to whatnot's last post - the one I quoted. Whah I am actually REALLY saying is that there are finite resources. Nothing more, nothing less. Is this so difficult to understand?

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Whah I am actually REALLY saying is that there are finite resources. Nothing more, nothing less. Is this so difficult to understand?

for somebody so new here to the BoB project you dont seem to know much about what detailed information oleg has provided on all of this, his plans are (thankfully) much greater then the depressed narrow world you are trying to limit it to

and can you make some effort to stick to what these forum threads are for instead of in a boring monotone keep arguing AGAINST what other people here are discussing. this OP is discussing what HE and OTHER members here find interesting, that doesnt need your approval, consent, or depressive banter. say it once you dont like it, fine, but you keep going on and on with the same negative drivel as if what others discuss here needs your approval, it doesnt. find that hard to grasp perhaps ? if you have no interest in this threads content just go and slither away under some rock somewhere and leave other forum users here to what THEY find interesting

[artjunky]

A lot of threads seem to have a very similar lifecycle here these days:

1) A good (well personal preference ofcourse, but atleast feasible) idea is introduced
2) Someone envisions that even further, maybe even to unrealistic heights
3) A horde of unofficial resource controllers and priority polices hit the thread with "BOB is not a universe / farm / car / prison break / ground force / tree / cooking / whatever simulator! Stick to the essentials, resources are limited."
4) The original idea of the thread and the possible brainstorming around the topic slowly fades away

Interesting =)

I've noticed that same trend.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by artjunky

I also remember when Flight Sims didn't have ANY ground objects

I don't.

There were ground objects in F16 Combat Pilot on the Atari ST, there were ground objects in Falcon, there were ground objects in MiG 29, there were ground objects in Snow Strike. There may have been ground objects in Anco's Jump Jet, but it was so rubbish I didn't bother flying it long enough to find them.

[whatnot]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Something that might have been 'a good idea' earlier in the SoW development cycle but that only gets suggested now is unlikely to be incorporated into the release version unless it needs minimal work, I'd have thought, and many of the suggestions are anything but simple.

How I see the purpose of these forums when it comes to ideas is that the sim community (pretty hc simmers here on average I'd assume) shout out ideas they have and then the development crew are the ones who actually pick'n'mix what is feasible and suits the title / franchise.
And when talking about ideas for SOW I don't think it should be limited to the initial release since we're looking at an epic saga unfold. So they can address whatever future patches or releases too. Otherwise as the release gets closer and closer no one could type their suggestions as the RTM is imminent.

So my perception in a nutshell: open brainstorming here on the forum, validation / feasibility analysis by the Maddox crew who actually has a say on things.

But I've blabbered enough on this topic already, I guess I'll zip it and just watch the loop repeat itself.

[Novotny]

Well, you're possibly right, whatnot. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Oleg and his team are probably quite a bit more hardcore than your average gamer.

It bothers me that people think Oleg just muddles along with no clear idea of what he's doing; previously in this thread and others internet people make claims that something was only fixed or introduced because of their feedback.

I'm of the impression that Oleg is quite intelligent - maybe even nearly as clever as some of our forum posters. Perhaps he is quite completely aware of issues such as human-building scaling, and they get attended to as and when he and his team can. Perhaps other things have higher priorities.

Only my opinion, but I'd guess that nineteen out of twenty suggestions/demands/complaints made by gamers here have previously been considered by Oleg.

[whatnot]

Originally Posted by Novotny

Only my opinion, but I'd guess that nineteen out of twenty suggestions/demands/complaints made by gamers here have previously been considered by Oleg.

Yes, I guess he has has spent an hour or two thinking about these things as this project might be more or less his day job.

Still hundreds of brains passionate about flight sims that are thinking the game from perhaps different angles can yield something worth while. Assuming ofcourse that OM has the time and patience to read through all this crap.

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by Novotny

It bothers me that people think Oleg just muddles along with no clear idea of what he's doing; previously in this thread and others internet people make claims that something was only fixed or introduced because of their feedback.

Perhaps he is quite completely aware of issues such as human-building scaling, and they get attended to as and when he and his team can. Perhaps other things have higher priorities.

Only my opinion, but I'd guess that nineteen out of twenty suggestions/demands/complaints made by gamers here have previously been considered by Oleg.

Originally Posted by whatnot

How I see the purpose of these forums when it comes to ideas is that the sim community (pretty hc simmers here on average I'd assume) shout out ideas they have and then the development crew are the ones who actually pick'n'mix what is feasible and suits the title / franchise.

So my perception in a nutshell: open brainstorming here on the forum, validation / feasibility analysis by the Maddox crew who actually has a say on things.

I don't see the chat on this forum as being primarily directed at the enlightenment of Oleg and the developers (except in the few cases they specifically ask for help or feedback).

I think the main issue is that we're all to a large degree still in the dark about what the game will be like, plus we're all extremely interested in the possibilities. What this leads to is speculation, wishes and opinions.

Most of the time the issues we direct at Oleg are questions about whether some feature we think would be excellent will be included. But this only comes about because Oleg plays his cards close to his chest. Most of the time I think people are looking for reassurance from Oleg that their particular preferences will be included, NOT trying to say that they know better than the developers. edit:(We tend to argue with each other about things that are uncertain - i don't recall too many of us telling Oleg directly that his plans sucked..! Ok, there was the furore over the early WIP landscape...I'll be charitable and call that a 'misunderstanding' ...and stop digging holes for myself... )

In the absence of full and complete info about the game from the man building it all we can do is debate, argue and talk amongst ourselves.

Sometimes it's pointless and ends up going round in circles because the only person who can really say YES or NO usually has better things to do.

Edit #2: just read the SOW AI Crew Members thread. I take it all back. We are a bunch of smart-arses who think we know best