Good Tanker units?

[Amidamaru86]

Originally Posted by Vilk

Weird I never tried that, that's a non logical rule but totally true, with Divine Armor -100% is replaced by 30% or more depending of some stuff like Healer skill but also int and perhaps more, I pick two saves in my current game and got 39% and 44% with divine armor level 3, both with heal skill level 1.

That trick is huge and change a lot the tank point of view. Ancient Ent then are certainly the best tank or one of the best even against fire. The real weakness is the requirement to cast teleport but for a mage with Higher Magic skill that's less a burden.

For any tank Shield of Archmage is great and Peacefulness too, both against any type of attack. Also Stoneskin is useless against non physical attacks like magic.

Sorry can't aggre with that, finnished the game 3x on impossible (with all possible classes):

1) Ents, Ancient or not have low initiative
2) Movement speed is like 2-3..
3) The leadership is too big
4) Pesky fire abilities hurt them much
5) teleporting them (even for a mage) is a burden = it will cause more deaths in your army, cause you didn't use a damaging/crowd controlling spell.

Best tanks so far are Horsemen = most versatile = good initiative, good amount of hp, good speed, good damage, unlimited in shops, you can get them at lvl 1-2.

Other good tanks are:

Griffins (flying, good initiative, always retaliate, good amount of hp, magic and physical ressistance, good items to boost them)

Royal Snakes (good amount of hp, initiative, no retaliation, good attack, decent speed, Immune to poisons, Lunge ability is awsome)

Veteran Orcs (but only if you are lucky to have a shop which sells them - great speed, defence, hp, attack, initiative, bad part is that items which boost orc armies are hard to find)

When looking for a tank, don't just look for HP, look for defence/speed/initiative, abilities, overall usage = would you use black knights on a map where there are many inquisitors/monks ?, try to pick a tanking unit which will at least tank in your army in 2-3 maps, Horsemen can tank the whole game - and you can be 100% certain they will be in the capital.

[Vilk]

1: I agree initiative is a burden but for a tank it's a less major burden. You can manage that and if you use target you don't care much of the initiative for your tank.

2: It seems you never used Ancient Ent so don't even start to suspect how strong they are. Ancient Ent moves of 1.

3: Same than above, use them before talking about them.

4: You didn't read the Divine Armor trick, it cancel fully the fire penalty and add the full resistance from Divine Armor.

5: Easy.
With mage learn Higher Magic.
With Paladin and Warrior learn tactic level 2. Put Ancient Ent as far than possible from your side. Cast Target on it, long range are already busy with it and won't hurt your other troops. Other enemy troops won't reach you in round 1 or Dragon and Archdemon won't care of your target and tank anyway. Round 2 teleport Ancient Ent at the best tank place.
I agree that slow tanks are more for the mage.

Overall, my comment about Ancient Ent is more for a mage but that need more testing with a warrior. Also I have to admit than if I use them including a little as tank, I haven't yet tried with the Divine Armor trick that change a lot the point of view.

I also agree with you that mobility is an important factor for a Tank. About using only Horsemen as tank through all game I'd say that tank is a major role and use one or even two reserve slots for more tank options is a more efficient approach.

[Vilk]

About Ancient Ent as Tank, low mobility is a burden I agree, low initiative is a handicap I agree too. But let see it from a defense point of view with few sample math:

• First quote, the life ratio: Life per 100 Leadership is 83.33. That is huge for a level 5 unit and that match or does better than most level 2 to 4 units and many level 1 units. For example Horsemen has a lower base life ratio of 72.22. Well for a warrior with Iron fist skill the picture is different but for mage and paladin that cannot be improved without a very very rare items set (Knight set). Such high Leadership cost means an average Leadership lost of 500, that's significant but the more Leadership you have the less 500 is significant. Still, Ancient Ent have an exceptional life ratio for a level 5 unit.
• Second quote, the defense. For Ancient Ent this brings between 50% and 25% less damages than Horsemen. See bellow the little math for explanation.
• More over Ancient Ent also have 50% resistance to poison and 10% to physical. For example in comparison Horsemen has 20% to physical and 20% to fire.

So if you consider the Divine Armor trick that fully cancel Ancient Ent penalty against fire, the 50% to 25% less damages than Horsemen, the excellent life ratio, it's clear that Ancient Ent is an exceptional defender, good for a tank, could worth the low mobility and low initiative in many battle. For a mage I'm almost sure but haven't yet test. For a Paladin more tests need to be done. For a warrior that could be a less interesting option with an investment in Iron Fist. Still damage reduction is more important than life ratio and even with warrior, Ancient Ent worth a try as tank.

About the reduced damages:
Higher units compensate lower leadership ratios with higher defense and attack. For a Tank let see the defense of Ancient Ent: 50. In comparison a Horsemen has 25. For an attacker with an attack higher than enemy defense, each added attack-defense point gives 3% more damages. But let consider the less favorable option, as the hero has many defense bonus and with a such high defense base the average ratio will be more roughly 2% in average. That means roughly 50% less damages than Horsemen. If we use a negative hypothesis with an average of 1% instead of 2%, it's still 25% less damages, that is huge. That's why Ancient Ent are so strong, exceptional life ratio and very high defense.

EDIT: As already quoted items can change many things, for example the Steam Armor inflict a huge mobility penalty but if for some reason you still want try it, Knight become non mobile as Ancient Ent but gain 30% defense ie get a defense of roughly 36 but also has 30% resistance to physical and fire. With Iron fist skill, circle attack and 30% attack bonus given by Steam Armor that can build an interesting non mobile tank option.

[Shadowdrake]

There's no cap, thats really the only problem with ghosts; you have to be careful when judging their resurrection. You have to hire less than your normal limit and keep the rest in reserve to make use of them properly.

[loreangelicus]

In my opinion, the best tank is a Phantom-ed Emerald Green Dragon for the following reasons:

1) Emerald Green Dragons in themselves are good combo units for other spells like Invisibility to take on tough battles with a single troop stack.

2) EGDs have high initiative and high speed, so no need to Teleport them to the middle of the enemy ranks, they could fly themselves in.

3) Level 3 Phantom costs 25 mana and generates close to 50% of the original EGD stack; when your Phantoms are coming out with 5+ troop counts (from an original stack of 10+) their mana blast radius ability could give you back 15+ mana, sometimes even greater than 25 mana, effectively giving you FREE Phantoms.

4) You can let Phantoms die, no need to Resurrect them or things like that, and still get a no-casualty battle.

5) They last 3 turns, and with a high life to leadership ratio plus good resistances including 50% fire resistance, they often last until the spell expires. But why stop at one Phantom when they pay for their existence mana-wise? Keep on casting Phantom-ed EGDs that deal damage and draw aggro.

Just my 2-cents.

*** update 10-10-2009***
Attached a screenshot wherein you could see the phantom-ed EGDs being swapped for the enemy's Royal Thorns; when the phantom used its mana area attack it basically damaged the surrounding enemies and regenerated +25 mana, the cost of summoning it.

[Shadowdrake]

The problem is that either you have emeralds with stoneskin and target (assuming you have Higher Magic, otherwise just target - you'll have to use Sacrifice later on to heal them) or giants/ents with teleport - but then you have to choose between target and stoneskin.

[Comandan52]

A good tanker unit IMO is the Giant with Peacefullness. Else i suggest the Dwarf. Toooooo damn resistant!!