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#51
10-22-2007, 12:37 AM
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#52
10-22-2007, 04:52 AM
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So what happens when everyone creates the uber pilot who has the most stamina and strength? It happens on the footbal sims all the time.... a waste of time IMO.. but hey.. who am I..
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#53
10-22-2007, 05:22 AM
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yes Good question bear .. who are you ? ...
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#54
10-22-2007, 05:36 AM
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 even if only the f16 was a true fly by wire aircraft, the hydraulically boosted system in the other 2 aircraft you flew in is still SIGNIFICANTLY better and lighter to use than the controls in most single seater fighter aircraft of ww2, and those of the early war BoB period. there must be figures to quantify this, and give us a number for stick resistance in full deflection for various directions (at various speeds), and the same for full rudder deflection. i suspect the forces involved are somewhere around 4x higher than those in the modern hydraulically boosted systems you experienced. and ... i suspect that when you talk about training for a "sustained furball" in those more modern aircraft, the actual total amount of time you might have been stomping hard on the rudder for full deflection AND stirring the stick to various directions at full deflection, might have been about 10 minutes out of a 2 hr flight. add to that another 10 min of less strenuous maneuvres, and that would have been the sortie ? the problem we have in il2 is at the other extreme of the argument. the way it is at the moment you can take a ww2 single seater and do wild maneuvers continuesly for the full duration that your fuel last (eg up to 2 hrs). in the bigger online servers you can see this going on most days, and it is very unrealistic. a person might have been continuesly hard maneuvering in a big furrball, and then get chased home for another 15 min with 2 enemies on his tail while he is constantly making wild erratic maneuvers to prevent getting shot down. that is simply impossible for a human to sustain. on some other il2 forums this exact question was asked to several ww2 pilots who actually flew those planes, and they commented that if they saw that kind of erratic and wild defensive movement they would simply backoff and wait a few minutes for the other person to become exhausted, and then move in for an easy kill. in real life you simply couldnt fly like that more than a few minutes. i work in medical physiology and i can assure you adrenaline is no wonder chemical that can justify that superman strength for such prolonged periods of time that we see right now in il2. when the japs did the death marches in asia (like burma), or the nazi's worked millions of slave labourers to their death, adrenaline didnt save those people either. with the death marches in asia (or those done by the russians with their german prisoners after Stalingrad for ex) a fully fit man could be pushed to total exhaustion in a few days on those forced marches, and "all they had to do" was simply keep on walking ! even with a jap soldier standing over him with a bayonet to finish him of like a dog as he lay in the mud next to the road, he didnt find a sudden burst of adrenaline to keep on walking. that might sound like an extreme example, but i see the same in the performance testing of athletes. you can have a fit and well trained athlete that you expose to a continues series of exercises at high resistance, and his performance will significantly drop after a relatively short period of time. he simply cant put out the same high workload forever. and even if you would put a growling tiger next to him to motivate him, that would only give him a brief lift in performance for a short period, and then the exhaustion would return and his performance drops massively. i dont doubt the experience you describe is real for modern times, but you didnt continuesly work stick and rudder at full strenght for the full duration of the sortie, and the resistances you worked with are probably 25 or 30% of what they had to deal with in ww2. adrenaline can stave off mental exhaustion for many hours, but does not eliminate physical fatigue during sustained high workloads.
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#55
10-22-2007, 06:27 AM
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Lets see how this can be done..\
Arcade the fatigue should be ON when the engine management and surfaces are on automatic.. When on Full real with full management well how would you consider the fatigue to be..? more or less strong to be set ? and ofcourse flying one full gas tank on those conditions + natural fatigue of the simmer + airframe stress + fatigue to watch your gauges ALL in 6DOF going forward and back looking in all directions that cause more fatigue for teh Simemr as well and watch out for enemy blabla etc.. Right now in IL2 you can run the plane like a car with absolutely no care beside well radiator.. So if the guys turn and turn at 50 G's for an hour i hope that will be on arcade mode and not on serious mode. Well Time of fatigue is important fatigue for an hour or fatigue for Days, months years on a prisoner camp with no food and no close.. are very different very!!!! but this can vary so much.. So all this can be answer by how Oleg's team will design their sim's physics of the virtual world and all it's components and planes etc.., .. more real or more game.. that is the definitive question..
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#56
10-22-2007, 08:26 AM
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Well Zap...
We can debat the physiology of it till the cows come home... all I can do is state what MY experience was like... And as I said... I am quite curious as to how it will be implementented in the sim. 
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#57
10-22-2007, 09:23 AM
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from what oleg has already said, pilot fatigue will be included in BoB, but he gave no indication how it will be modeled, or how the virtual pilot can keep track of the level of fatigue being experienced. i would favor some visual on screen indication, because we need to represent a physical sensation that a pilot feels, and he is continuesly aware of his own energy levels without having to look for a gauge or suddenly find his arms/legs go weak and he cant control the aircraft anymore. the fake-real crowd wont like this however, because they will compare it to a energy-bar seen in some 1e person shooter games. i am not sure how else this information could be continuesly made available at a glance, since you'd want to keep track of it during a dogfight that lasts longer than a few minutes. once this variable is included in the game, people will learn how to fly smarter, instead of just going wild with eratic movements and pretend they are flying a Tie fighter with a uber-robot at the controls. you could even represent the adrenaline effect by having a brief % boost in energy level when the plane gets hit by enemy fire, or a new engagement start. similarly, if a person doesnt trim his plane correctly on egress/ingress and flies like that for 20 min or so, it should erode his energy levels, similar to increased fatigue that would happen in real life when flying an untrimmed aircraft.
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#58
10-22-2007, 11:20 AM
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"I noticed, that you were doing high Gs for 6 minutes now, and in real life it was no more than 3 Gs for most turns, and in 2 minutes you were not able to see what gauges showed!”
Viktor Alexeevich Tikhomirov
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#59
10-22-2007, 12:06 PM
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More info, more info, please!
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