What kind of joystick for CoD ?

[MikkOwl]

I have an old CH Combat Stick with CH Throttle, both from 1996. They don't work anymore. When they did work, the throttle was way too loose and the stick also was far too loose and light. They also wore out and started flickering nervously.

I have a Logitech 3D Precision Pro or whatever it is called. It is a simple twist joystick. Has a little throttle flap on it. For the price, it is pretty good. Very ergonomic and easy on the hands. Takes up minimal space. Easy to set up. I think it is the ideal starter joystick for someone who is not yet 100% converted into flight sims, or does not have the space, money or effort to set things up.

I have a G940 which I have written extensively about in the past. It is a complete package with stick (force feedback), throttle and rudder pedals. If it did not have the reversal bug, it would be a great package. But currently, all axes have that reversal bug except the joystick X/Y and it takes a lot of fun (and precision) out of flying. Rudder is a disaster to try to use with any accuracy what so ever. The reversal bug makes the rudder behave so that, let's say you are using a bit of rudder to aim at something or keep a certain course - the moment you think "I put a little bit too much rudder, so I'll gently ease off it", it makes a BIG jump in the opposite direction rather than easing off. And when you think "oh xxxx, that's too much" and apply a bit more, it makes a jump right back. The whole airplane is violently shaking its nose to the left and right due to these large sudden inputs and you swear in frustration. It is nothing what so ever like real mechanical linkage - it is the exact opposite of it - like some force is strongly boosting the movements you do, but only when you change direction from one to the other.

The force feedback is supremely awesome and I really don't want to go back to a joystick without that. It gives actual feedback of what is going on and things just feel so much more alive. Some people who fly in reality say it doesn't really make things more realistic, but the same can be said about force feedback steering wheels (which I also have, and since I have actually raced cars I have something to compare to). Most of the feeling in reality is felt in the body, being pulled and shaken around. The steering wheel (and I guess airplane stick) is less than this. But it is there. Mainly the looser and tighter stick when going different speeds - buffeting and how it losens totally in stalls, violent shakes while on the ground or when flying with gears down on final approach (then the stick is very loose and at the same time rocking around - it feels scary!)

In IL-2 it takes a bit of adjusting to get the force feedback to work properly, at the right speeds, range of stick throw and stuff like that. They tightened up the force feedback a lot (as users requested) in the firwmare upgrade in May 2010 but quite a few people didn't properly set up their FF settings and were asking how to go back to the old firmware.

If I wasn't stuck with my G940, I would today choose the Thrustmaster Warthog and buy separate pedals. Much more expensive than the G940 but the feel of it and probably quality should be much higher. The G940 has been a major headache for me and I'm still unhappy how Logitech hasn't bothered fixed the major bugs of it. All they need to do is to remove the reversal bug and it would be great fun. They might get around to it. Or they might not.

[Richie]

Originally Posted by speculum jockey

Different strokes for different folks.

That's totally correct. To me it feels so stiff. Very reliable and well made for a lower priced stick though. The quality of it is excellent. I'm just too feeble I guess

[IbnSolmyr]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

I have a G940 which I have written extensively about in the past. It is a complete package with stick (force feedback), throttle and rudder pedals. If it did not have the reversal bug, it would be a great package. But currently, all axes have that reversal bug except the joystick X/Y and it takes a lot of fun (and precision) out of flying. Rudder is a disaster to try to use with any accuracy what so ever. The reversal bug makes the rudder behave so that, let's say you are using a bit of rudder to aim at something or keep a certain course - the moment you think "I put a little bit too much rudder, so I'll gently ease off it", it makes a BIG jump in the opposite direction rather than easing off. And when you think "oh xxxx, that's too much" and apply a bit more, it makes a jump right back. The whole airplane is violently shaking its nose to the left and right due to these large sudden inputs and you swear in frustration. It is nothing what so ever like real mechanical linkage - it is the exact opposite of it - like some force is strongly boosting the movements you do, but only when you change direction from one to the other.

I have the old Microsoft FFB2 wich is a cheap sure thing. I'm looking for a perfect merge of all the G940 functionalities and the Warthog quality... doesn't exist i guess, as the CH products don't feel as good as they look like (and personally i would like a WW2 time dedicated product, but perfect for it so perfect for THE new Il-2 series...)

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

The force feedback is supremely awesome and I really don't want to go back to a joystick without that.It gives actual feedback of what is going on and things just feel so much more alive.

+ 1 !

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

Some people who fly in reality say it doesn't really make things more realistic, but the same can be said about force feedback steering wheels (which I also have, and since I have actually raced cars I have something to compare to). Most of the feeling in reality is felt in the body, being pulled and shaken around. The steering wheel (and I guess airplane stick) is less than this. But it is there. Mainly the looser and tighter stick when going different speeds - buffeting and how it losens totally in stalls, violent shakes while on the ground or when flying with gears down on final approach (then the stick is very loose and at the same time rocking around - it feels scary!)

But did they fly in such warbirds, and in such war conditions... Personally, all the vet books i read talk about what the dogfighters were feeling in their stick, and it often was awesome !.. Some of them died because weren't able to work on the stick at 700 or 800 km/h and the earth was growing...
What car did you race ? I don't understand your feeling about the comparison FFB wheel/real driving : maybe you drive with modern cars that are a lot more nice to make turn, but personally i'm only interested in classic cars, and all are quite hard to drive, and my G25 with latest drivers and max FFB is really close to the reality, even if it's never perfect obviously. But it's pretty much better than without !!!
By the way, do you know "Power and Glory" ? (an improved mix of GTL and GTR2... a wonderful thing, and the 3.0v released is close !)

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

In IL-2 it takes a bit of adjusting to get the force feedback to work properly, at the right speeds, range of stick throw and stuff like that. They tightened up the force feedback a lot (as users requested) in the firwmare upgrade in May 2010 but quite a few people didn't properly set up their FF settings and were asking how to go back to the old firmware.

Yes, it's always the most difficult to do to get a good sim with a FFB. And we often are waiting years before the constructors give us some really good firmwares that allow us to set nicely all this stuff !

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

If I wasn't stuck with my G940, I would today choose the Thrustmaster Warthog and buy separate pedals. Much more expensive than the G940 but the feel of it and probably quality should be much higher. The G940 has been a major headache for me and I'm still unhappy how Logitech hasn't bothered fixed the major bugs of it. All they need to do is to remove the reversal bug and it would be great fun. They might get around to it. Or they might not.

Please, could you explain me what exactly is this problem ??? I really don't understand : how a major constructor could produce such a thing and let it with such a stupid prob ?? I don't see exactly what it is, and how could it be possible. I'm very concerned, because i tought buying this one maybe just after the CoD release..

[DD_crash]

Originally Posted by IbnSolmyr

Please, could you explain me what exactly is this problem ??? I really don't understand : how a major constructor could produce such a thing and let it with such a stupid prob ?? I don't see exactly what it is, and how could it be possible. I'm very concerned, because i tought buying this one maybe just after the CoD release..

Welcome to the Wacky World of Logitech. Mine is back in the box for now.

[Artist]

Originally Posted by IbnSolmyr

Please, could you explain me what exactly is this problem???

See this post and the next

Originally Posted by IbnSolmyr

I really don't understand : how a major constructor could produce such a thing and let it with such a stupid prob??

Yeah. Good question. Very good question.

[SEE]

I will stick with my x52 STD (better then my Pro since magnet mod IMO). Some love them some hate them. Some last minutes, others years but once the guarantee is up you are 'stuffed' - no service or parts from Saitek.

They are huge and had no where to fit my KB on my desk, the upside is you never have to use the KB again. The downside is your stick buttons are now providing functions that could be accessed using the keyboard - the buttons are simply going to be overworked and fail. Keyboards are a lot cheaper than a X52 HOTAS ......I use a mini Zippy KB. Works great for me!


[IMG][/IMG]

[IbnSolmyr]

Originally Posted by Artist

See this post and the next

Ok, thanks for the link.
It's really so stupid ! Isn't it just a software problem ? Ouch...

[Artist]

Originally Posted by IbnSolmyr

Ok, thanks for the link.
It's really so stupid ! Isn't it just a software problem ? Ouch...

Yes. Rumour has it that Logitech introduced this to prevent the user noticing the potentiometers wearing out (after the usual 1 million movements) - by already being used to this behaviour. Support for the rumour would be (a) that the Reversal Bug does result in a similiar behaviour and (b) that Logitech fixed it for the x- and y-axes on the stick, those being the only two axes with Hall sensors.

However: There are two software workarounds created by users: MultiThrottle by MikkOwl and YaDeLi by me.

Edit: missing 'the' before 'only two axes'

[Sokol1]

Artist

And about replace these potentiometers used by Logitech G940 (probably same cheap ones used in 3DPRO) for good quality one, like Bourns, Spectrol?
Ie, these sold by L.Bodnar (you find better prices in online stores.

Or, even with good pots these "reverse"bug still?

I see G940 in overall better appropriated for prop sim than Warthog - due many rotaries.

Sokol1

[Artist]

Sokol1,

Originally Posted by Sokol1

And about replace these potentiometers [...]

It's not the potentiometers, its the firmware in the stick that creates the Reversal Bug... You could build in Hall sensors (as I will one of these days) and it would not change anything.

The only way is what others and I did: bypass the Logitech controller and firmware by connecting the potentiometers to a different controller (such as BU0836X)...

Originally Posted by Sokol1

I see G940 in overall better appropriated for prop sim than Warthog - due many rotaries.

I do not know the Warthog - knowing in the sense of having flown with it - but after I modded my G940 as described above I am without warranty but quite happy with it: feels good and I wouldn't miss the forcefeedback for the world (even learned something about electronics on the way).

Artist