Shaman Karrakh quest chain..?! (Spoilers)

[Helios]

Thanks to Vulture for all the information here. I kept wondering why people recommended the poison dagger and Isshara's whip for use with LF and Sprites, because I didn't realize their magic damage or archers (!) were affected in such ways. Knowing this will help a great deal as I go for some runs with just one race (elves, humans, etc.) in the future.

And big wow that you are able to get the Reaper on level 7-10! That must have taken some serious kiting! I thought I was doing great to get him at level 13 this time around.

Vulture, what do you think of taking leadership at every level-up for every class? I am nearly done breezing through Impossible with the Paladin doing so, so obviously the Warrior could do the same, but do you think it would give the Mage enough leadership to breeze through the game, or would the missed stat points weaken his already weak Atk and Def? I haven't tried it with him yet on this difficulty.

Edit: I still don't feel like I have a very good strategy for the Mage. I tried him as a pure damage dealer at the cost of leadership and army stats just to go for a different playing experience than with the other classes, but that strategy seemed quite slow and inferior to concentrating use of Distortion spells with the other classes. Would it ever be practical to play as a sort of Mage/Warrior, using his Higher Magic for multiple spell book usage, but equipping him to enhance his army rather than Int? My previous attempts at maxing his Int at all costs ended with pathetic single digit Atk and Def on level 30.

[Vulture]

No problem, you're very welcome.

As for the Reaper quest. It's easy if you hand-pick the game you want to play by applying the savegame scanner beforehand and relentlessly abuse the KI of adventure map enemies. Plus I bribe Lucky James instead of killing him. Costs me a fortune but I get to the Taron Mines without a single fight (except the turtle). With all the items, spells and troops available that I need and all the adventure map treasure until the end of Upper Hadar you have so much leadership and such great stats and leveled up spells that it's really not an art to break Bogacho Castle's siege at this early level.

As for the mage: if you're playing above "hard" you won't get far with a "glass cannon" aka an int-boosted Chaos spell hurling one-shot mage. So you are doing alright by trying to boost his Atk (Def is neglectable entirely) and ldr as well. But don't go extreme and try to play your mage like a warrior. Where you can: use pure spellforce. Where you can't, play tactically smart.

As for the leadership: you can also search the forum for this. There is math on every choice you have to make on levelups. I haven't played in a while and I don't want to search for you right now so bear with me if I'm wrong here:
Basically it's like this: leadership options are limited. You don't get more than so many options but before level 7 (iirc) leadership is inferior to any stat except Defense. And afaik (as a Warrior) leadership under a certain amount I cannot recall is inferior to Atk. So it's definitely not advised to pick leadership each time, especially not if Atk is the other option. I'm afraid I have to leave you to yourself and the search function on this one.

[Madstrike]

Youve been rly helpful vulture, I started using that tip u gave me with the timeback on end of turn 2 on the targeted unit(I didnt have it for lvl 4 creatures) so I decided to give a crack with griffins, and it worked like a charm.
Now I finally got ress spell(thought was never gonna get it) so I might get back with demons.
Im just having problems with black dragons atm, because I can never get that first hit with my skellie archers(dragon arrows) unless I battle cry my team, which means I have to battle cry+ dragon arrow in the first turn, so no target spell. Either that or I have to put a couple of traps on the field. I have onslaught level 1, but Im out of might runes, so I cant get that route for dark commander just to get my archers initiative higher...
Also as u prolly already know, the girls are rly weak against the dragons(specially the black one) so I was thinking about changing the strikers for something else against them, royal snakes always comes mind on those moments, do u have any other suggestions to replace the girls when facing many stacks of black/red dragons?

[Helios]

Vulture, thanks for even more info. Thanks very helpful regarding the Mage. I suppose as a Mage, one should have several different setups of equipment ready for when fire rain could do the job, or when brute force is needed. And it does seem pretty negligible to consider taking leadership before level 8 or so. By the end of the game, if taken four times in those first eight levels, it would be a tiny amount of difference in army composition. I'll start skipping it on my next playthrough. If I kite all the way to the Reaper, it surely wouldn't matter at all to skip leadership that early with all the banners you'd pick up before fighting a battle! (And I had a topic on leadership mentioned to me before, I just wondered what you as a veteran who obviously has a great grasp of the game thought. Not too many players around the forums these days!)

Regarding the Poison Dagger and Whip: do they affect all units, or are their bonuses only added to certain units? I already sold both in my game and have been rocking with 2 Dragon Slayer Swords and the Gladiator Sword. I never would have guessed those +1 damage weapons could be so useful.
--Edit: from reading the forum, it appears that these weapons do work on every unit. Very interesting!

And it never really occurred to me until now, but Dragon Arrows is a pretty good spell to cast on any kind of archer even if the target isn't a dragon, isn't it? It's like a Ghost Blade attached to an Atk stat rather than an Int stat, isn't it?

(PS: Sorry for hijacking this thread.)

[Madstrike]

Originally Posted by Helios

Regarding the Poison Dagger and Whip: do they affect all units, or are their bonuses only added to certain units? I already sold both in my game and have been rocking with 2 Dragon Slayer Swords and the Gladiator Sword. I never would have guessed those +1 damage weapons could be so useful.
--Edit: from reading the forum, it appears that these weapons do work on every unit. Very interesting!

And it never really occurred to me until now, but Dragon Arrows is a pretty good spell to cast on any kind of archer even if the target isn't a dragon, isn't it? It's like a Ghost Blade attached to an Atk stat rather than an Int stat, isn't it?

(PS: Sorry for hijacking this thread.)

dragon arrows work best with skellie archers who have very low attack, but very high leadership/damage ratio, if u take a look on the other archers they have a not so hot leadership/damage ratio, mostly because they have other things like some nice abilities(sniper) and have attack a lot higher, I mean it doesnt make much sense dragon arrowing hunters(they already have high attack). On the unit u wanna kill it doesnt matter if its a dragon(the name comes just because dragons have very high defense but the dragon arrows break through that high defense and also resistance).
On the poison dagger/ whip combo, they also work best with creatures that have high leadership/damage ratio, so the girls are the perfect target(consider the lake faerie for example, it deals 1-2 damage, so if a weapon adds another 1 of damage it means 50% increase in damage!) plus if u mass bless them u got yourself some brutal damage dealers.

[Vulture]

@Madstrike: I know your problem. Read my postings about the "Cruel Haas" battle and the Dragons (especially Blacks) in it. I can tell you so much:
The girls suck against them ofc, their damage is 100% magical and with dagger and whip that doesn't change either. But a warrior with sick atk and a "Dragon Slayer" spell on them even THAT is negated. But it requires sick gear if you want to pull that off on higher difficulties. So you need other damage dealers.
Well, you can pick from a wide range of choices:
Even if they usually suck but Knights perform excellently against Dragons. "Valor" and "Dragon Slayer" are attributes just made for those ^^ And you can even cast Dragon Slayer on them, to boot and as far as I remember, the two stack with each other.
The next option would be Demons. They also take less fire damage and the infinite retaliation is double awesome. My choice #1 against Dragons. Always. Buffed with damage enhancement spells they just plain chop down Dragon stacks and can withstand multiple stacks pummeling them. With Xeona as a wife and the resulting +1 morale that only does more service.
Other good options include Giants (can't argue against 50 base defense), Emerald Green Dragons and Bowmen (not as awesome as Skellies but with Dragon Arrows and/or Dragon Slayer they are devastating, too, especially if both are in the team ^^).

The key against Dragons, tho, is not necessarily the setup. It's the strategy. A good cheese I always use is to just barr your ranged and support behind Ice Thorns ! Make sure you don't leave a spot free. This will keep Dragons from attacking them instead of your tank(s) and you can fire away as much as you want. But be aware of Red Dragons as they will just do their breath that goes over several tiles and still damage your support/ranged. So take out those first (before the blacks).
You can find more counter-Dragon strategy in the forum if you search. There is tons of stuff. More than I can possibly sum up.

@Helios: Firstly, yes, Dragon Arrows works perfectly fine against any highlvl unit. The reason is the way it works. It negates the opponents surplus Defense that exceeds your unit's Atk. That means the lower your unit's Atk and the higher the opponents Def, the bigger the DIFFERENCE in damage numbers will be (not the bigger the max dmg will be) with or without DA. So a unit like, say, Giants, Ancient Ents or Dragons with 50+ Defense will lose the MOST defense of all. Therefore the effect is the greatest with them, resulting in the biggest damage and biggest lulz :>

Secondly, yes, the weapons work with all units. But a unit that has, say, 30-38 damage base, a +1 or +2 won't make that much of a difference as they are still balanced with a tad more. Unit's with 1-2 or 1-3 damage however become over the top brutal with them. Math :>
Thirdly: you sold the dagger and the whip ? OMG, I know a few people - especially from back when there was no savegame scanner - that would take great delight in shoving their boots up your butt for that xD

I'm sorry if I mostly just repeated what Madstrike told you in the post above mine but it's pretty much all there is to it.

[Helios]

Thanks to both of you for the explanations! Now I see why I thought Dragon Arrows was so great on my last Mage playthrough when I had 9 Atk at the end and shot just about anything with them for higher damage than a normal shot.

@Vulture and the boot up the butt: yeah, I feel that way now! But (ha!) I've used the girls on every other playthrough and switched it up this time to sending endless Green Dragon Phantoms into the enemy lines with the Archmage shield talent on them, along with Royal Thorns, Dryads, and Inquisitors--I throw in Knights every once in awhile for tons of dragons but the dragons have been a joke for me with the two Dragon Slayer Swords--Royal Thorns just bite the stack in retaliation and kill them all, and then I bite the other stack who thought the RT were a yummy target, repeat next turn on the retal only, then Time Back. I was afraid the RT would be useless with their weakness to fire against the dragons, and the AI heroes/gremlins love hitting them with fire spells, but the Blackthorn Crown + Time Back is a lifesaver--obviously this is situational due to the godliness of the items I got on this game, so I don't think they would be very good against dragons in other situations a la Madstrike's.

Of the girls, I'm only using Dryads this time, since they are so useful in nearly every situation (I got the Blackthorn Crown + early stack of Royal Thorns and have been stunned at the damage I've been getting out of expendable thorns). I can't imagine what the damage would be like out of that cannon fodder if I hadn't sold those weapons!!

Since I know now how to edit the game, maybe I should just put them back for sale at some location since I've usually got a massive stack or two of expendable thorns in every battle. :p

And thanks for all the tips. I read the forum extensively last night and found some neat suggestions for wreaking havoc with Knights (Teleport spell + Circle Attack + Time Back), and some ideas for a Mage. I've seen it argued both ways for a Mage nuker on Impossible to be viable (I think these people must have given themselves insane items to make it work in every situation) and a Mage focused on 2x Distortion and Order spells both being the better of the two focuses, but perhaps there's a good blend to the two types, or that each one works depending on troop selection.

And I've got a possibly crazy idea to try and play games with only using a specific race by using the editor from the start that I would love to hear either of your input on which class to choose for each race. But I'll go put that post in the class forum and not clog this one up with it.

[Madstrike]

Vulture, again thanks for the tips. Ive read the thread of "cruel haas" u have posted, very good and variety of opinions there.
Onto the dragons thing, I managed to grab the whip, but I dont have the dagger in my game as I already have scanned, Im basically playing the girls without it, and they suck against black dragons.

Im even considering dumping them and going for another set up, ive found rather odd items:2x batons(humans have no powerhouse like the paladin in AP imho), elven crown, telecopic sight, how about this: elves+hunters(also got silver horn) with a combination of 2x human units(dunno) +demons???(maybe fit skellie archers somewhere in here?). Also might have to keep with griffins or somethingelse as my timenback is rly underdeveloped as it is. Basically my weapons suck(Im using the dragon slayer sword, other than that I have the runic sword), I have no artifacts other than the telecopic sight, and the eye of the storm, lots of regalia(think that would make me marry the elf girl for the slots, but she is not rly appealing), and the rest is not worth mentioning.

My attack is subpar(9 with the whip, or 12 with dragonslayer), defense is ok(14), and int not high enough to nuke down some big stacks..., also lvl 23, 15k ldr.

My problem isnt so much killing the black dragons(royal snakes make short work of them if I need to), its just killing them before they do anything, because even if I put my griffins(or whatever target) on the middle of the field or even right in front of them,they will ignore them and go for other units(they love faeries and archers), thats why Im placing traps lately.Problems appear when there are multiple stacks of them along with ranged units.
Ill be able to max onslaught once I trade my map with the queen but I wont be able to put points into dark commander past lvl1 for now(so no init boost for the skellie archers), I do have the regalia that boosts 1-3 units +1 init, and I have the mask of pandemonic, which I havent upgraded(-1 init to enemy) yet(that will do the trick for the first turn).

ps: I just realized I have cloak of shadows+vampire ring is in a shop, should I use them(or ancient vampires at least)?

[Vulture]

@Helios: you see. In the end, everything comes down to playstyle, given items and availability of troops as I said right in the beginning

@madstrike: hence my recommendation to use Icy Thorns. The thing is: the AI always attack the target they can
a) reach with the fewest number of turns
b) take down the biggest percentage of total leadership with.
c) reduce the most incoming damage with.


That will always come down to level 1 units, or the lowest levelled unit you have in your setup because they have the least defense and health, thus ending up dropping fast. That means Skeleton Archers, Lake Fairies, Sprites, Dryads, Bowmen and so on. Therefore: put everything but your tanks behind ice thorns (except maybe a durable melee striker unit but place that out of reach of the Black Dragon) and make sure, with all force, that you have ******* FIRST initiative. It's vital and there is no way around it.

About Ancient Vampires: they are my #1 choice as secondary tanks or as primary tanks on icy grounds (Demon gets defense penalty). And of course my tanks when I play undead only (which I never play out because I always end up adding Inquisitors, Demons, Shamans, Demonesses or Bowmen occasionally in the end). With enough Atk they beome not only killing machines but also sustain themselves easily through the Life Drain ability in bat form so that you can use Time Back for other things.
Absolutely perfect would be if your game had Ancient Vampires and Ancient Vampire Bats because you can have both. You just can't transform them on the battlefield for they will be out of control because you'll have twice your leadership in Ancient Vampires or Bats respectively.
But beware that Life Drain ofc only works against the living. Undeads and plants excluded. And also beware of no retaliation units for retaliation is a big factor in sustaining numbers through Life Drain. I've seen a huge stack of Bats chopped down by a stack of archers, a 2,500 stack of royal snakes and 3k Scoffer Imps in one turn.
The ring is nice but there's usually better stuff than that. iirc it just pushes their max hp which is nice but not what you need. Distance and strategy are your defense and health bar. Not defence and health.

[Madstrike]

hmm, I might try the ancient vampires and see what happens, they seem like decent strikers, only problem I see is their low speed, in bat form they have great speed and init but not so hot damage, would it be better using them than royal snakes?(these are my favorites to pwn some black/red dragons other than the skellie archers). Also considering I have 2 batons, do u think its a good idea to get the elf wife(more regalia slots) and use some human unit. Im having a hard time considering human units, they all look subpar(the strikers dont do much damage) so I dont see how they would rly benefit from the +2 morale. Knights are good, but they are way too slow... maybe horseman?