Speed graphs for Spitfire and Hurricane

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

I've read the values from the various charts by a ruler. Note that I only used the values at altitude 0, 1000, 2000, ..., 10000 (1000 m step)

Thanks for doing that. Guess i'm staying above 6000m when flying red, lol.

[BlackSix]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Thanks, Black Six. At last we finally know why the Spitfire Ia's top speed at sea level is 240 mph. The slope of the curve was simply applied to the 0 - 3000 m gap in information, so 0 feet = 240 mph. Mystery solved.

More correctly: we didn't have official flight tests for Spits and Hurris between 0 and 3000m for this test.
I don't know how our FM programmer made this planes for game in 2011.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Thanks, Banks. That chart squares very closely to what we all KNOW how a Spitfire Ia performs at sea level. The vast majority of dogfights on the ATAG Server occur well below 3000 meters, including those that start above that mark inevitably descend well below it.

For a year the CoD RAF fighters (save the IIa) have been saddled with poor low altitude performance, with the only fighter, the Spitfire IIa the only one which comes close to historical performance at low altitude (300 mph at sea level vs 290 mph historically). Yet in the face of stiff opposition by many of those who fly 109's, the IIa was either excluded or severely limited in the ATAG plane sets. Now we've been advised that the IIa will be nerfed in the upcoming patch by as much as 60 mph at some point(s) on the speed curve. In view of the Rotol and Ia information, confidence by many who choose to fly RAF fighters is very low that correct flight modelling for all three models (Ia, IIa, Hurricane Rotol/Ia) will actually be done in this upcoming patch.

All many of want is an ACCURATE representation of ALL fighter flight models for BOTH sides. The Spitfire Ia was considered a serious threat by Luftwaffe 109 pilots during the Battle of Britain at ALL altitudes. In Cliffs of Dover, the "Sissyfire" Ia is a cruel joke that has lasted over a year -- anyone who plays Cliffs of Dover doesn't need performance charts to realize that. Why can't the devs see that?????

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by BlackSix

More correctly: we didn't have official flight tests for Spits and Hurris between 0 and 3000m for this test.
I don't know how our FM programmer made this planes for game in 2011.

Thanks, Black Six. I think we've got it figured out.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Thanks, Black Six. At last we finally know why the Spitfire Ia's top speed at sea level is 240 mph. The slope of the curve was simply applied to the 0 - 3000 m gap in information, so 0 feet = 240 mph. Mystery solved.

Yes, judging from the graph the Spitfire lost pre-patch 30km/h for each 1000 m of altitude (from 530 at 4000 to 500 at 3000). At the same pace it will end up with 400km/h at 0 m (= 250mph).

Post-patch it seems to be slightly less (Maybe I just want so see that), maybe 25km/h for each 1000m. This would result in 415km/h (=260mph).

Of course that won't help much against the 460/490 km/h of the Bf 109.

IMHO the base speeds are not that badly implemented compared to historical values. However the WEP, which was historically available for the Bf 109 only for take-off and up to 1-1.5km gives the in-game Bf 109 a huge speed advantage.

[41Sqn_Banks]

m	S	H	109W	109
0			490	460
1000			510	480
2000		435	530	500
3000	490	455	550	520
4000	510	480	570	540
5000	540	505	580	570
6000	560	520	560	560
7000	560	495	520	520
8000	540	455		
9000	520			
10000

Those are the values I used for the graph, maybe someone can check it to rule out reading errors by myself.

S= Spitfire
H= Hurricane
109W = Bf 109 WEP
109 = Bf 109 no WEP

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

Yes, judging from the graph the Spitfire lost pre-patch 30km/h for each 1000 m of altitude (from 530 at 4000 to 500 at 3000). At the same pace it will end up with 400km/h at 0 m (= 250mph).

Post-patch it seems to be slightly less (Maybe I just want so see that), maybe 25km/h for each 1000m. This would result in 415km/h (=260mph).

Of course that won't help much against the 460/490 km/h of the Bf 109.

IMHO the base speeds are not that badly implemented compared to historical values. However the WEP, which was historically available for the Bf 109 only for take-off and up to 1-1.5km gives the in-game Bf 109 a huge speed advantage.

I agree with all but the "the base speeds are not that badly implemented compared to historical values". The Ia's base speed of 240 mph with NO boost cut out control modelled in this game make them easy meat for 109's in the vast majority of online action. Yes, I would prefer to engage 109's above 16,000 feet but frequently there is no choice -- nor initiative -- possible in online action.

The devs must be aware of this inequity and prefer the 109's to have the overwhelming speed advantage in low altitude engagements; otherwise they would have corrected it a year ago with a hotfix. Now it's apparent that they've chosen to further widen the gap in low level performance for reasons of their own. Many CoD 109 pilots are pleased by this, but others have voiced concern at what they themselves perceive to be a deterioration in gameplay in terms of challenging opposition.

So be it.

[mazex]

Thanks for the update B6!

/mazex

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

These graphs only show performance from 2000/3000m and up, whereas the previous graphs showed performance from 0m and up.

It's very interesting to note that between 3000 and 5000m, the patched 109E4 performs better than RL, whereas both the Rotol Hurri and the MkIa Spitfire perform worse than RL at these altitudes.

Please can we see graphs for the Spits and Hurris from 0m and up, so we can make a true comparison?

Many Thanks.

Thanks for these BlackSix, very interesting stuff.

Yeah it looks like that with these graphs @3km the Spitfire is 50-60kmph slower than the 109. I am staying calm because you have the flight model data for the 87 octane (6.25lbs) model of the RAF fighters which are not Battle of Britain fighters

Please refer to the bug 174 (in my signature) to get details on the correct 100 octane (12lbs) RAF fighters.

And for the punters, please upvote that bug

[SEE]

I think many RED players will have to discipline themselves to stay above 6000m if the Spit1a is the only allied fighter on a server and draw the ME109 into high alt combat. For me that is how it should be but, even so, the planned reduction of 20km/hr below 6000m in a Spit Mk1a is controversial to say the least.