BOB a mistake ? --- The Battle of France

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by GOZR

Asheshouse You are dreaming right ?.. English beaten fled away to their island leaving France alone versus German advanced ground power .. man ..

Anyway lets go foward..

Come on GOZR -- lets have some facts, and we can all learn a bit, including me.

From the figures posted it seems that the RAF losses were proportionately larger than those of the Armee de l'Air. Why was that?
Why was such a large proportion of the French Air Force still intact at the end of the battle? In fact the French had more aircraft available at the end than at the beginning!

It appears to me -- from limited reading -- that the French military leaders were psychologically beaten before the forces on the ground were. Large parts of the air force were withdrawn to North Africa and Syria, where subsequently they came into conflict with the British forces!! There also seems to have been poor cooperation between allied airforces generally and the ground troops, compared with what the german forces were able to achieve.

Regarding the miraculous fighting retreat from Dunkirk, this was only possible in part due to the successful rear guard actions a large part of which was carried out by the French forces in the area. On the other hand the air cover over Dunkirk was almost entirely left to the RAF as far as I know.

The biggest failure of the BoF seems to have been that of the French Government who were too ready to accept defeat rather than to fight on.
Churchill's refusal to sue for peace after the withdrawal from France was a major turning point, resulting in BoB, and it was only after BoB that the USA realised that they had a potential winner to back.

[C6_Krasno]

Why was such a large proportion of the French Air Force still intact at the end of the battle? In fact the French had more aircraft available at the end than at the beginning!

I think this can be explained, because the French HQ prepared this war to be a long war, then it wasn't necessary to use the whole air forces in the very begginning. In fact, England didn't send any of his Spitfires in France, and withdrew it's expeditionary corp before the end. Besides, this corp wasn't as important as the one during the WWI.

The biggest failure of the BoF seems to have been that of the French Government who were too ready to accept defeat rather than to fight on.

The French Government was maybe too sure of the victory at the begginning, so I don't know...

[HarryKlein]

rom the figures posted it seems that the RAF losses were proportionately
larger than those of the Armee de l'Air. Why was that?

The loss of material, ie 892 from 10 May to 11 June (loss from 12 to 25 June are no known),
represent 70% of 1286 planes available May 10,
And 30% of the crews from May 10 to June 25.

In fact the French had more aircraft available at the end than at the beginning!

Yes this shows the great effort made by the industry.
However, a large Quantities were not operational because production of
Accessories have not followed the production of cells,
So most of them had not received their weapons,
their instruments etc...

[X]

The best, recent scholarship on the Battle of France in English is the very interesting STRANGE VICTORY: HITLER'S CONQUEST OF FRANCE by Ernest R. May, an analysis written for the the U.S. CIA which, for the first time in English, raises some fascinating questions about the the British Army and Gort's conduct of operations. In essence, May takes the French position that if the British Army had stood and fought, instead of fleeing and evacuating, the Germans would not have been able to digest the enormous bite they took out of the Allied line. Alastair Horn's TO LOSE A BATTLE is the recognized best traditional analysis in English. There is nothing at all on French air operations available in English. For the British there is the painful VALIANT WINGS by Franks about the destruction of the Battle and Blenheim squadrons in the Battle of France. The superb TWELVE DAYS IN MAY by Cull, Lander, and Weiss covers the Hurricane squadrons in the Battle of France, and documents the not inconsiderable bite they took out of the Luftwaffe. BLITZED! by Bingham is a useful general work on the RAF in the Battle of France by a member of the RAF who experienced the battle. FLEDGLING EAGLES by Shores covers the "Drole de Guerre" and puts to rest any illusions French fighter squadrons were intimidated by the Germans. Essential reading is St. Exupery's FLIGHT TO ARRAS.

As far as the old canard about the French being beaten psychologically before the first shot was fired, that can be put to rest by reading May or Horne. The French aircraft industry was in chaos due to nationalization. The French and the British were preparing for war in 1942, not 1940. Then they would have been completely ready. In 1940 both were still in the early stages of mobilization. Hitler knew this and wanted to hit them as soon as possible---he wanted to invade right after he had finished with Poland in fall 1939.

Many have forgotten that when a French armored unit fought a German armored division in Belgium before the breakout at Sedan threw their communications into confusion it beat it soundly in a stand-up fight.

[GOZR]

This is great to see some great input here guys..
Such history forgotten by many.

The begining of the war the drole de guerre to the Battle of France is completely over looked by Oleg and others and i think making a sim about it would be one of the best scenarios to find.. and also putting back honor where it should be and untold truth .

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by GOZR

This is great to see some great input here guys..
Such history forgotten by many.

The begining of the war the drole de guerre to the Battle of France is completely over looked by Oleg and others and i think making a sim about it would be one of the best scenarios to find.. and also putting back honor where it should be and untold truth .

Sad truth, propaganda wins over facts.

Same destiny applies for instance to Italian pilots. Enormous courage against overwhelming odds.

Best regards,
Insuber

[Insuber]

By the way, the Battle of France would be 100x more interesting than the BoB, used and abused in gazillions of simulators, books, movies, comics ... YAWN!

Oleg is risking a lot this time, since the technical realisation and game playability should really be at top in order to compensate the lack of originality.

Best regards,
Insuber

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by X

The best, recent scholarship on the Battle of France in English is the very interesting STRANGE VICTORY: HITLER'S CONQUEST OF FRANCE by Ernest R. May, an analysis written for the the U.S. CIA which, for the first time in English, raises some fascinating questions about the the British Army and Gort's conduct of operations. In essence, May takes the French position that if the British Army had stood and fought, instead of fleeing and evacuating, the Germans would not have been able to digest the enormous bite they took out of the Allied line.

Not having read May I dont know what he bases this analysis on however the facts were that the German breakthrough was on the French held section of the front. The British forces were outflanked by the breakthrough and therefore had to counterattack or fall back. In fact they attempted to counterattack first but were tactically beaten by the Germans. Having lost a major part of their armour in this attack they had no choice but to pull back their right flank to prevent the panzer forces breaking into the rear areas.

We shouldnt forget that the British forces were the junior partner to the French who possessed armour superior in quality and quantity to the Germans. It was just badly used. The French and British should have counter attacked at the same time, to stretch the German reserves but the responses were poorly coordinated and the magnitude of the French response was disproportionately small relative to their resourses.

I have to agree with the other comments here that the campaign makes a facinating subject to study or simulate. So many "what ifs" to consider, and the complexity of the air battle combining air superiority tasks with ground support probably provides greater interest and depth than BoB. But I guess this very complexity makes it more difficult to get all of the AI issues correct and the logistics of modelling the much greater number of aircraft and ground models is more challenging. I hope BoB will just be the start and that at some stage BoF will get proper coverage.

[X]

The actual British operations were not that straightforward, as even the most partisan British accounts will attest. The matter of the the conduct of the British land operations is a hot topic. When military colleges games out the Battle of France without a British withdrawal, the Allies often win because the German cordon to the sea was very thin to have held against a combined attack from north and south of the cordon.

[Asheshouse]

Tank numbers
taken from Blitzkrieg - Len Deighton

French Heavy 311, Medium 681, Light 950, Total 1942 (89% allied total)
British Heavy 75, Medium 156, - Total 231 (11% allied total)
German Heavy 278, Medium 798, Light 1095, Total 2171

Heavy = PzKw 1V, Char B1, Matilda (under gunned)
Med = PzKwIII, PzKw 38, Somua S35, Hotchkiss H35 & H39, A10, A13
Light = PzKw II, Renault R35

Armoured vehicles armed only with machine guns are excluded.