Equilibrium Mod

[Fatt_Shade]

@ Zechnophobe
Why would you say this is cheating mode ???
`Rider` just balanced it out. In original game for all skills you could get +9Att, +11Def, +18Int ( overpowered Mage class by me, we could make Warrior with lower Att then Int !!! ), with this mode you get same attribute bonues for al classes if you want.
Might tree +12Att, +9Def and bunch or rage, Mind tree +6Att, +9Def ( i sugessted to lower to 6 ), +6Int and some mana and rage, and Magic tree +12Int, 20 more mana then before and +18scrolls tihs is bigest change but not so much of cheat ( how are those scrolls important in ? we got more mana by this change more scrolls are just so you can buy spells you find in shops/castles and dont want to destroy one`s you already have in spell book). So all in all new skills are just balanced as they should be for each class.
Other big change are bonuses after battles, more runes and potions of rage/mana/mana source. More runes are so we can get those skills we want (if you dont want to just odnt use all tohse runes/potions). I played Mage and had more then 20 mana sources, and +50 mana/rage potions in inventory just didnt use them. maybe it`s cheat if oyu sell all tohse potions and get more ogld then without moding, i dont think so.
So it is true this make game a bit easier, but think about what i said. In what degree is it cheating ? All those bonus runes/potion/cristalls you can ignore in your invertory. For lvling up skills you can write somewhere how much runes you got after battles and dont use them. Potions you sell, that gold wont make big diference , and for magic cristalls you get form alchemy . . . dont know cant sell them, cant destroy but you can get same from destroying items with Neatness skills so it`s not so big change.
All in all, Rider only balanced skills nothing more, and for me it`s ok should had been done by developers (they f...ed up with Final score at end of game also).
If you still think it`s cheating say what exactly so we can discuss (im back playing this game, so i check forum here from time to time

[Jah]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

So it is true this make game a bit easier, but think about what i said.

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

All in all, Rider only balanced skills nothing more

"Balancing" suggests that the original, unmodded game had some kind of imbalance that needed fixing. Are you saying that the unmodded game, even at Easy difficulty, is too hard?

[Fatt_Shade]

Not `unbalanced` as in hard.
I said Rider balanced stat bonuses form skills in dieferent skill tree`s. You get same amount of Att Def & Int bonuses, and mana/rage from all skills. He gave us more runes so if you want you can get those skills, if not, leave runes unused.
Before this mode with proper items, and build max Int was 84 i think, and max Att just 54. So with Mage and Higher magic you could 20K+ direct dmg with spells, on other side no Warrior could do that with dragon. Max is 3200-3800 with lava call, witch compared to Mage spell dmg outputt is nothing, considering that cost 80+ rage and only usable every 3 turns. I know about waking dragon spell, but that for Warrior and Paladin class just waste turn for some other buff/suport spell.
This mod gave us more dmg for pure fighting players in bonus +6Att in might tree just Warrior class), and +3/+6 Att/Dmg in mind. That is all that is new. Bonus runes after battles - dont use them , bonus potions after battles - dont use them, bonus cristals after battles - dont use them.
All i see changed in this mod is +3Att (+9 for Warrior), +6Def, and some rage/mana. Rage is more use for Mage/Paladin, and mana for Warrior.
I think you`ll agree that imposible/no loss is norlam these days, this bonus mana and rage is just so we dont wast time in skiping turns to resurect fallen units with fantoms. + bonus rage means nothing in Boss fights like before, and those fights were most tedious to resurect units (you leave some pathetic range/no retaliation enemy alive to resurect. And i`ll summ it all , in this mode i dont see cheating only shorter time playing battles to resurect units, and +3/+6 Att/Def for all classes. All those after battles bonuses can be discarded, cause you simply dont have to use them.

[Jah]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Before this mode with proper items, and build max Int was 84 i think, and max Att just 54. So with Mage and Higher magic you could 20K+ direct dmg with spells, on other side no Warrior could do that with dragon. Max is 3200-3800 with lava call, witch compared to Mage spell dmg outputt is nothing, considering that cost 80+ rage and only usable every 3 turns. I know about waking dragon spell, but that for Warrior and Paladin class just waste turn for some other buff/suport spell.
This mod gave us more dmg for pure fighting players in bonus +6Att in might tree just Warrior class), and +3/+6 Att/Dmg in mind. That is all that is new.

So if I understand you correctly, you're arguing that pure fighting types needed some kind of extra boost, because they were underpowered compared to mages? A warrior with Lava Call may not be able to inflict as much damage as a mage with maxed INT using some damage-dealing spell, but that comparison alone doesn't say much about class balance.

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Bonus runes after battles - dont use them

If you have rune mages in your army (as most no-loss players seem to have), you really can't "not use" them. Even if you don't use them for buying new skills, they'll still be there to boost your rune mages.

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

I think you`ll agree that imposible/no loss is norlam these days, this bonus mana and rage is just so we dont wast time in skiping turns to resurect fallen units with fantoms. + bonus rage means nothing in Boss fights like before, and those fights were most tedious to resurect units

It could be used as a "convenience tweak" for Impossible/no-loss games the way you described, but not everyone plays Impossible/no-loss, and even in those games, the same bonuses could be used in a number of different, arguably overpowered ways.

So while it may be possible to use the mod in a way that doesn't significantly lower difficulty (which I believe is what the "cheating" comment referred to), I think it offers rather unnecessary opportunities for it - in other words, you have to constantly remind yourself not to "cheat" by keeping track of how many extra runes and crystals you have and making sure you only use that extra mana to resurrect your troops faster at the end of a battle. For the purpose of convenience and faster resurrection, I think the changes are too heavy-handed.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying you or anyone else shouldn't be using this mod - after all, KB is a single-player game and anyone can enjoy it any way they like. Personally, I just feel that for me, this particular mod would break more than it would fix.

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

cheating

Uh... Cheating? I didn't say anything about that.

Unless the original posts notes aren't right, this mod just increases all areas. More attack, more defense, more rage, more mana. Nothing goes down anywhere. How is that balance?

And more runes? That's somehow not making it easier?

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by Jah

So if I understand you correctly, you're arguing that pure fighting types needed some kind of extra boost, because they were underpowered compared to mages? A warrior with Lava Call may not be able to inflict as much damage as a mage with maxed INT using some damage-dealing spell, but that comparison alone doesn't say much about class balance.

Ok i compared bad with hign Int spells for Mage, and Warrior, i meant to say mid/late game when you get class specific skills it it get even. More rage form Bloodthirst isn`t strong as double casting with mage.
I dont think pure fighting class need special boost, i just say it makes things even ground. In original setings was +9/+12/+18 Att Def Int, here is +18 all = it`s balanced.

Originally Posted by Jah

If you have rune mages in your army (as most no-loss players seem to have), you really can't "not use" them. Even if you don't use them for buying new skills, they'll still be there to boost your rune mages

Yes it is bonus for Rune mages, but it`s caped to 20 runes. You can trade runes around on Montero Might for Mind/Magic and back again untill you waste enough runes. So having 20 or 50 reserve runes wont make any difference, Might doesnt mean much as Mind and Magic for him. And more runes for revive is same as casting 1 or more illusions = 1+ rounds in battle. Thus i said bonus mana shorten that, and no more wasting time just to get no loss. As many ppl save some weak units, and skip turns to ressurect, i think this bonus mana just make skipping rounds obsolete. If you know you can finish battle with no loss, and only thing you need is to wait couple turns to regen mana, and cast illusion this mode helps you with that. Only problem are Magic runes, for 30% sheep on target, so i must agree here it is a bit of a problem.
No loss doesnt make any difference in scoring in game (days played, lvl of hero and quests). This mode doesnt get you next things : shorter traveling time, more lvl for hero (no bonus exp, or leadership), better items, or better units. All you get is really +3Att and +6Def ( +3Att/Def from Absolute balance isnt cheap so it`s optional).
Ppl who play for 7day, 63lvl, 92(or 93)quests usualy save game before going to new islands and scout for units and items, then plan in advance way around and then load, and replay every 30 battles to get Ancient knowledge scrolls from Elenthel. To me this way of playing is more wrong then using this mode. This mode wont make it much easier, only shorten your battles.

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

Uh... Cheating? I didn't say anything about that.
Unless the original posts notes aren't right, this mod just increases all areas. More attack, more defense, more rage, more mana. Nothing goes down anywhere. How is that balance?
And more runes? That's somehow not making it easier?

Sry, my bad for `cheating`. Didnt get your post before.
You dont get MORE anything, you only get same amount of everything. Thus name of mode `Equilibrium`
As for bonus runes i said above if you really need to spend only runes you get regularly you can write somewhere how much runes you get every lvl, it`s easier then remembering bonuses after every battle. So far only unit that is dependent of runes is Rune mage, so i cant say it`s so much easier with this mode then original settings of game.

That is why i asked about changing other heal/resurrect units. If you play this mode, you either have bunch unused runes that you must hire some poor peasant to carry them around, or use them for lvling up skills. If you dont use runes my idea is to make them work something for you. Either to get Might runes to boost up dmg from unit abilitys, Mind for heal/resurrect for Paladins, Fauns . . . , for Magic runes maybe Evil beholders Hypnotise, or Druid`s charm.
Before dissing me that it would be overpowered think about this : you use runes to get lets say Dark commander, so it means your runes boost all undead, or Summoner you used runes to boost every unit that have some summoning ability.
In this expansion developers get new unit Rune mage who get bonuses from your unused runes. On 1 side you have some skills that change stats for group of units all undead, or all archers, and then you get ONLY 1 unit that is boosted by unused runes. Am i only 1 that think this is wrong ?
I posted this question on 1 more tread, but if you ppl have some idea how to change this tell me. Cause i cant figure out how to get this change to unit ability`s, to be dependent from unused runes in % like for Rune mage.

[Jah]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Ok i compared bad with hign Int spells for Mage, and Warrior, i meant to say mid/late game when you get class specific skills it it get even. More rage form Bloodthirst isn`t strong as double casting with mage.
I dont think pure fighting class need special boost, i just say it makes things even ground. In original setings was +9/+12/+18 Att Def Int, here is +18 all = it`s balanced.

But then, mages start out with lower leadership and gain ATT and DEF slower, and at low levels, the difference in spellcasting abilities isn't really significant enough to compensate for that. In that regard, the classes are already balanced: Warriors have an easier start, which is why it's only fair that their late-game abilities aren't as powerful as the mages'.

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

This mode wont make it much easier, only shorten your battles.

...assuming that you use the mod precisely the way you described, and I kind of doubt that was the author's intention; if it was, there would have been no need to add extra runes, extra crystals or extra potions.

Like I said, it may be possible to use the mod in a way that doesn't decrease difficulty too much, but since that requires you to consciously restrain yourself from using many of the things it offers, I can't agree with the notion that it wasn't designed to make the game easier.

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by Jah

But then, mages start out with lower leadership and gain ATT and DEF slower, and at low levels, the difference in spellcasting abilities isn't really significant enough to compensate for that. In that regard, the classes are already balanced: Warriors have an easier start, which is why it's only fair that their late-game abilities aren't as powerful as the mages'.

Early game/low lvls this mod doesn`t change anything, bonuses on Att/Deff are only available around mid game +Att for Warrior for class skill. Or from absolute balance, but that is for all classes. I dont think it`s so much stronger then before, compared to Mage higher Int and double casting.
As for spell casting early game, warrior have none his magic rune income is pathetic. Therefore some medal`s are harder to get for him comparing to Pally/Mage (this i mean without changes in mode).
Lets try this out, i think you`ll agree most important medal is Grand strategy asap 3 lvl is playing normally around changing from Rusty to Verona, that is 50 battles no loss, in those 50 battles you have chance to get bonus runes 2-4 might, 3-6 mind, 8-10 magic. For all that trouble you get 1k leadership which was plan in beginning, and maybe 1 more skill lvl depending how much runes you get and what skills you plan to lvlup.
So early-game you`ll get probably 1 skill lvl for bonus runes , mid-game most ppl get heavy battle control with phantom, summons from units, and take skills they need so no much unused runes to boots Rune mages ( ok you used runes from bonus after battles, that can be easing things a bit), but again late-game you`ll have your planed army on which you decided some items to help out, and for changes in skills biggest is for warrior class and that is only +6Att for which i cant agree is so stronger then in original game.

On other topic still no suggestions for helping me with changing unit abilities

[Zechnophobe]

Heroism: +2,+4,+6 Attack (was +1, +3, +6)
Resistance: +2, +4, +6 Defense (was +1, +3, +5)
Anger: 20%/+2, 40%/+4, 60%/+8 Rage Increase/Maximum Rage (was 20%,40%,60% rage flow increase)
The Power of Darkness: +3, +5/1, +7/2 Attack AND Defense/Initiative of all Undead (was +3, +5/1, +7/2 Attack/Initiative)
Bloodlust: +6/+2, +12/+4, +18/+6 Maximum Rage/Attack (was +5,+10,+15 maximum rage)

Counter-Attack: now in the Might Tree. Level 2 and 3 now give no retaliation ability to all allies for the 1st/2nd round.

MIND
Prayer: +3%/+1, +5%/+2, +7%/+3 Critical Chance/Defense (was +3%,+5%,+7% Critical Chance)
Absolute Balance: +4/+1, +8/+2, +12/+3 Mana and Rage/Attack and Defense (was +4,+8,+12 Mana and Rage)
Dragon Voice: +1/+6, +1/+12, +2/+18 Morale to animals and dragons/Increases Maximum Rage (was +1,+1,+2 Morale)
Trophy now costs only 5,5,5 mind runes, not 5+1,5+1,5+1 mind+magic runes

Holy Armor: now in the Mind Tree. Increases the magic, fire, poison and astral resistance with 30%, 30%, 50% for the first 1,2,2 rounds.

MAGIC
Linguistics: +2, +4, +6 Intellect (was +1, +3, +6 Intellect)
Order Magic: +6, +9, +12 Maximum Scrolls (was with no scolls bonus)
Distortion Magic: +2, +4, +6 Maximum Mana and Scrolls (was with no mana/scrolls bonus)
Chaos Magic: +6, +9, +12 Maximum Mana (was witn no mana bonus)
Thesis: +2/+8, +4/+16, +6/+24 Intellect/Maximum Mana (was +2/+7, +4/+14, +6/+21 Intellect/Maximum Mana)

So, Fatt_Shade, I'm probably just misunderstanding. But you keep saying there isn't 'just more'. I don't have the Mod installed so you have more information than I do.

All the changes are listed above, each one shows skills being enhanced, and none show them getting weaker. Can you please explain what penalties exist that offset these bonus'?

[Jah]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Early game/low lvls this mod doesn`t change anything

That's my whole point. The game is currently pretty well balanced in that warriors are stronger in the early game, while mages become more powerful in the late game. If you're going to give warriors some extra bonuses in the mid-/late game, then in order to maintain balance, you need to either give them penalties in the early game, or give mages a similar boost for low levels. Otherwise you're just making warriors stronger in relation to mages, which is not what I would call "balancing".