Spit IIa is now so much more inferior to the 109

[FS~Phat]

Originally Posted by ReconNZ

Why play red at all?

I was just in a dog fight online in a IIa getting boomed and zoomed by a 109 - he had 30 - 40% more lift and speed on me on every sweep past and he just flew away from me everytime. Seriously, there is no way that is historically correct. I am an ok pilot, I know about energy etc, but the 109 is such a better plane in this sim now, there is no point trying to fly in a dogfight 1 on 1 if you're in a spit.

The 109's are the only planes that didnt get spanked in the new patch, what the hell is that all about???

Not to mention the 109's just fly away when the do run out of ammo, and the spits cant even get close to catching them.

Honestly It kills the game, why play red at all, if the 109s continue to be so much better, pilots will go somewhere else, leaving nothing but blue planes on their own.

Actually the Spit 1A is now quite a good plane. I know its not up to the 109 standard but its night and day compared to before the patch. I think the SPit IIA still needs some work though. Keep in mind if the 109 pilot was maintaining his E after engaging with more E you wouldnt have had a chance and this is the way it should be. The one with more E potential will normally win a battle. Whether that be speed or alt, or even worse, both! Which he most likely had. Best thing you can do is a split S on one of his zooms and try and extend and escape to friendly cover if possible!

Surviving in WWII combat wasnt about having big balls of steel and going it alone and taking on an enemy with an advantage. Better to fight with at least a wingman or an element flight group if you want a chance to survive combat. Thats what Teamspeak is for!

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by ReconNZ

Why play red at all?

I was just in a dog fight online in a IIa getting boomed and zoomed by a 109 - he had 30 - 40% more lift and speed on me on every sweep past and he just flew away from me everytime. Seriously, there is no way that is historically correct. I am an ok pilot, I know about energy etc, but the 109 is such a better plane in this sim now, there is no point trying to fly in a dogfight 1 on 1 if you're in a spit.

The 109's are the only planes that didnt get spanked in the new patch, what the hell is that all about???

Not to mention the 109's just fly away when the do run out of ammo, and the spits cant even get close to catching them.

Honestly It kills the game, why play red at all, if the 109s continue to be so much better, pilots will go somewhere else, leaving nothing but blue planes on their own.

I'm a blue pilot, but I flew a couple of hours on ATAG as a red one just to test the new FM's. I had several dogfights on the Spit IIa with 109's and never lost one. I have indeed reversed tables regularly when attacked by surprise from behind, with the automagical Spit no-E-loss-1 barrel-roll maneuver. In horizontal there is no way a Spit could loose, in vertical it's slightly more difficult but still feasible. The 30-40% more lift and speed is a very inaccurate estimate, IMO, in a 1 vs 1 the Spit IIa has better chances than the 109. This matches my experience on the 109, the Spit IIa is still a superior plane in co-E 1 vs 1.

I friendly suggest you to fly a 109 and go against the Spit II, just to make yourself an idea.

Cheers!

[ReconNZ]

Originally Posted by Insuber

I'm a blue pilot, but I flew a couple of hours on ATAG as a red one just to test the new FM's. I had several dogfights on the Spit IIa with 109's and never lost one. I have indeed reversed tables regularly when attacked by surprise from behind, with the automagical Spit no-E-loss-1 barrel-roll maneuver. In horizontal there is no way a Spit could loose, in vertical it's slightly more difficult but still feasible. The 30-40% more lift and speed is a very inaccurate estimate, IMO, in a 1 vs 1 the Spit IIa has better chances than the 109. This matches my experience on the 109, the Spit IIa is still a superior plane in co-E 1 vs 1.

I friendly suggest you to fly a 109 and go against the Spit II, just to make yourself an idea.

Cheers!

Mate I disagree, sure a good spit pilot can beat a poor 109er, but two good pilots, the 109 will dominate every time. All the 109 needs to do is boom and zoom and let their cannons get 1-shot 1 kills as they most often do. The spit is a sitting duck to a booming and zooming 109.

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by ReconNZ

Mate I disagree, sure a good spit pilot can beat a poor 109er, but two good pilots, the 109 will dominate every time. All the 109 needs to do is boom and zoom and let their cannons get 1-shot 1 kills as they most often do. The spit is a sitting duck to a booming and zooming 109.

You are right. But this holds true for any plane: B&Z means that one has an alt advantage and keeps it with clever maneuvering, while the lower plane can't build up his E because he must dodge the slashing dives by turning tight.
When I did so against a Spit II I found that my 109 used to bleed E more quickly, and the Spit succeeded sometimes to build up enough E to oblige me to leave the field. The Spit II is a very tough opponent, and you have chances only when:

1. lots of E more + some good initial shots on controls
2. surprise attacks from his 6, only if he has the closed canpy and low sounds volume

But that's my opinion mate!

[senseispcc]

*
I think if one or the other was so superior to the other the results (scores in real live) should have let us seen a real margin in favour of one or the other and it did not. This 3 planes Spitfire, Hurricane and BF109 where very close and each had is qualities and if the pilots how flew them could use them the pilots where the victor of their encounters. Most important than the machines are the men inside them. During WW2 if the planes had performances not to far away from each other the numbers of planes and numbers but also the quality (training) of pilots did the rest. In 1940 the RAF pilots had in the beginning a little disadvantage in numbers and training but the fighter command did close that gap. The Nazis never did invade the UK! This is history and you may put many if in it you cannot change this.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by ReconNZ

Why play red at all?

I was just in a dog fight online in a IIa getting boomed and zoomed by a 109 - he had 30 - 40% more lift and speed on me on every sweep past and he just flew away from me everytime. Seriously, there is no way that is historically correct. I am an ok pilot, I know about energy etc, but the 109 is such a better plane in this sim now, there is no point trying to fly in a dogfight 1 on 1 if you're in a spit.

Can you give us the relative energy states at the start of the fight?
What was your altitude? What was the 109's one?
The speed of both?

[ReconNZ]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Can you give us the relative energy states at the start of the fight?
What was your altitude? What was the 109's one?
The speed of both?

Hi Manu

Yeah the reason i raised the original post in the first place was because this 109 actually started just lower than me. i came onto him and we had an initial first pass, at which point he began to climb, he climbed away from me, then turned and engaged. After 2 or 3 repeats of this, he was much higher than me,.

Now I'm a pretty experienced spit pilot, i did my best to stay with him, but the 109 just climbs so much better than the spit - it's ridiculous.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by ReconNZ

Hi Manu

Yeah the reason i raised the original post in the first place was because this 109 actually started just lower than me. i came onto him and we had an initial first pass, at which point he began to climb, he climbed away from me, then turned and engaged. After 2 or 3 repeats of this, he was much higher than me,.

How much lower? But above all what's your speed? Was he faster than you?

I asking this since when I engage an enemy at my altitude I'll pass 30m under him (without pointing his plane so that I can avoid stupid headons) and my objective is to build the required speed for an Immelmann turn since usually I'm climbing at low speed.

In that way usually I almost keep all my energy while most of my enemies will make a 180° flat turn, bleeding most of their energy.

From there if I'm in the better climber I can climb away easily.

Do you remember his and your initial manouvres?

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Yea you start again with prototypes and folder data not for serial planes. Serial 109 E test proff different results - 467- 475 km/h at 1.3 Ata (990 PS). Nothing new to me and no sense to disccussion these again.

BTW

109 T-2 with Db601N in May 1941 reached at 1.35 Ata 2600 RPM - 1175 PS ( maximum emergency power) 490 km/h at the deck.

So i think for 109 E-3/4 at 1.4-1.45 Ata ( 1- minut emergency power) it is possible 490-500 km/h at the deck for a while ( less then 1 minut) nothing more.

For comparsion serial Spitfire MK1 at +12 lbs could do 505 km/h at the deck but for longer time ( 5- minutes).

Originally Posted by ReconNZ

Hi Manu

Yeah the reason i raised the original post in the first place was because this 109 actually started just lower than me. i came onto him and we had an initial first pass, at which point he began to climb, he climbed away from me, then turned and engaged. After 2 or 3 repeats of this, he was much higher than me,.

Now I'm a pretty experienced spit pilot, i did my best to stay with him, but the 109 just climbs so much better than the spit - it's ridiculous.

Being lower does not means it had less energy than you. And if it was coming from a dive and had much more speed than you. Energy = speed + altitude. I bet you just not avalied the energy states good enough. After 2 or 3 pass he was much higher because problaby he puts you in defensive obligating you to turn a lot when he preserves its energy using less AoA and coming inside your turn for a snap shot. Next time rec a track.

Problaby you were a victim of the famous rope a dope manouver. the good 109 pilots use it a lot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQWyrOSB6uw

[5./JG27.Farber]

SOURCE? Did you write it yourself or is it a book? By whom?