P-47s

[trashcanman]

Originally Posted by IceFire

You mean how the gunsight is mounted too low? It'd be nice to fix that one.

Ah yes, the old chestnut of the gun sight too low …. I take it you are still part of the TD disinformation collective then

Please allow me to present the facts of the Fw 190 bar and the P-47 razorback bar.

For many years the representation within IL-2 of the gun sight views associated with both of these contemporary aircraft has been viewed as flawed given that both had the bottom part of the view obscured.

For reasons that are best left alone for the purposes of this discussion, the excellent Luftwaffe fighter has had many vociferous champions of the need to remove this visual obstruction. I believe it is fair to say that these arguments can be summarised as the need to remove “the bar”.

There were a few that advocated a similar argument in favour of the same consideration being given to the less fashionable American aircraft.

Despite the passionately presented arguments, over many years, the developers of IL-2 decided to maintain their original representation of the gun sight views of both aircraft.

However, once the IL-2 files were modified by Team Diablos, the Fw 190 bar was immediately removed. The sole justification for this, and in the face of all other contrary evidence, was given as the dispersion of light waves at the perimeter of different densities of glass.

However, despite the far clearer evidence for the need to apply the same correction to the P-47, we have yet to see this even discussed or acknowledged. Every now and again there will be a vague promise of the Jug cockpit being “reworked”, “looked at” or just PM abuse, threats and forum bullying.

As I have said both here and in other online discussions, much of what TD is doing to mod IL-2 is excellent however there are many people that are concerned with the lack of consistency and transparency about changes being made that significantly alter the historical integrity of the game.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by trashcanman

Ah yes, the old chestnut of the gun sight too low …. I take it you are still part of the TD disinformation collective then

I don't believe in conspiracy theories that involve more than 2 people.

Please allow me to present the facts of the Fw 190 bar and the P-47 razorback bar.



For many years the representation within IL-2 of the gun sight views associated with both of these contemporary aircraft has been viewed as flawed given that both had the bottom part of the view obscured.

For reasons that are best left alone for the purposes of this discussion, the excellent Luftwaffe fighter has had many vociferous champions of the need to remove this visual obstruction. I believe it is fair to say that these arguments can be summarised as the need to remove “the bar”.

There were a few that advocated a similar argument in favour of the same consideration being given to the less fashionable American aircraft.

Despite the passionately presented arguments, over many years, the developers of IL-2 decided to maintain their original representation of the gun sight views of both aircraft.

However, once the IL-2 files were modified by Team Diablos, the Fw 190 bar was immediately removed. The sole justification for this, and in the face of all other contrary evidence, was given as the dispersion of light waves at the perimeter of different densities of glass.

However, despite the far clearer evidence for the need to apply the same correction to the P-47, we have yet to see this even discussed or acknowledged. Every now and again there will be a vague promise of the Jug cockpit being “reworked”, “looked at” or just PM abuse, threats and forum bullying.

As I have said both here and in other online discussions, much of what TD is doing to mod IL-2 is excellent however there are many people that are concerned with the lack of consistency and transparency about changes being made that significantly alter the historical integrity of the game.

You're right in that if one aircraft suffers from a particular malady from the simulation environment is fixed then it sure would be nice to have other types that suffer similarly to have some time spent on them.

I honestly don't know if anyone has looked at the P-47 cockpit but given the number of American aircraft enthusiasts it is surprising that the bar discussion never reached the level that the FW190s did. The FW190 one was hundreds of pages spread over several threads on the old Ready Room forum. I think the P-47s gunsight issue came up maybe once or twice over the years. Has it even come up here? Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

The P-47 cockpit suffers from more than just a poorly placed gunsight. It needs a redo... the texture work is atrocious (and unfinished according to the original authors) and the geometry could stand to be cleaned up a fair bit too. I do wonder if anyone was doing some work on the P-47 that they decided to do a more substantial effort and that it would take a lot longer. If this is such an issue for you... why not get involved?

[trashcanman]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I don't believe in conspiracy theories that involve more than 2 people.

May I suggest the following as examples

WMD in Iraq
BBC and Jimmy Saville
Hillsborough and South Yorkshire Police

As for the volume of the noise coming from Fw 190 fans over the years, I think that says more about them than the quality of their "facts"

Sadly, too many American aircraft enthusiasts are only interested in the post-D-Day aircraft like the P-51D.

Any hoo, I've made my point, my beloved P-47 razorback isn't going to get changed by TD.

Lastly, I would like to thank you IceFire for your civilised responses, you are a gentleman Sir. ~S!

[ImpalerNL]

It's a great airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsuKqPDcAfw

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

I have been fortunate enough in my life to have seen 3 Jugs fly. One was in a CAF airshow in Texas and made a very close to full power low pass and the other two were at an airshow in Indiana. They did some low passes but they were far from wide open. It was quite awesome.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by trashcanman

Any hoo, I've made my point, my beloved P-47 razorback isn't going to get changed by TD.

Lastly, I would like to thank you IceFire for your civilised responses, you are a gentleman Sir. ~S!

I hope that you're proven wrong. I really do... The first fighter I learned on in IL-2 Forgotten Battles after the typical La-7 noobish beginnings was the P-47 because I loved the idea of the plane and because it was the greatest challenge. I have a serious appreciation for the aircraft. It was terribly modelled at the beginning and I was one of the louder voices asking for things like its roll rate to be corrected. So believe me when I say that I'd like to see a few resources put here too. And I'd love a P-47N out of the deal if it wasn't too much to ask.

I do try!

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Gabelschwanz Teufel

I have been fortunate enough in my life to have seen 3 Jugs fly. One was in a CAF airshow in Texas and made a very close to full power low pass and the other two were at an airshow in Indiana. They did some low passes but they were far from wide open. It was quite awesome.

Haven't been lucky enough to see one yet... One day I will!

[RPS69]

Accusing a developement team of being biased, is a very unpolite approach.
TD got tons of work to do, and with their propper schedule.
Even on the absurd discusion about the 190's bar, peopleatempted to show proof on original planes photos.
Pick a photo of a P47 cocckpit and superpose it with the one in game and show us the truth.
Not meaning that the actual solution is right, but that the proposed one is better.
I will prefer TD to alocate time on the Pz 11. It is far worst than the P47, and it is the only official polish plane.

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Haven't been lucky enough to see one yet... One day I will!

That low pass sounded just like you imagine that it would. It was at Hondo, Texas. He came over about a thousand feet, went out about two miles, turned and lined up with the runway, hopped a line of trees at the end of the runway and came screaming down the centerline. It was either an N or an M, I don't recall which it was. It's been a long time ago.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Gabelschwanz Teufel

That low pass sounded just like you imagine that it would. It was at Hondo, Texas. He came over about a thousand feet, went out about two miles, turned and lined up with the runway, hopped a line of trees at the end of the runway and came screaming down the centerline. It was either an N or an M, I don't recall which it was. It's been a long time ago.

That does sound glorious! If it sounds anything like a F4U Corsair doing something sort of similar ... then it will be spectacular.