Friday 2010-07-02 Dev. update and Discussion Thread

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Originally Posted by RyansPlace

Oleg: First time posting here. Excellent job with the series so far. I'm a huge fan! Would you consider putting a tool in the sim that would allow players to create custom formations? There were so many different SOPs and methods of organizing air wings on all sides. Rather then try to include a limited selection of formations in the game, allow players to create there own and make them exportable files as are aircraft skins and missions. That alone greatly expands the possibilities for much more epically scaled missions. Such as the London blitz campaign or simply the recreation of a red star formation with a flight of Yaks for a victory parade over Moscow, for example.
-Ry

Excellent idea and impressive work for showing what you are looking for. Something similiar to this was requested long time ago by me and others, but also for being used with fleets (combat and transport fleets), armor divisions, and so on. But i think nobody thought of exporting them as an exportable file that you can use and send to friends or download from the web.
I call that great thinking!

Hope we also get what we want with this!

[zakkandrachoff]

Originally Posted by RyansPlace

Oleg: First time posting here. Excellent job with the series so far. I'm a huge fan! Would you consider putting a tool in the sim that would allow players to create custom formations? There were so many different SOPs and methods of organizing air wings on all sides. Rather then try to include a limited selection of formations in the game, allow players to create there own and make them exportable files as are aircraft skins and missions. That alone greatly expands the possibilities for much more epically scaled missions. Such as the London blitz campaign or simply the recreation of a red star formation with a flight of Yaks for a victory parade over Moscow, for example.

I spent the better part of a year trying to make a large bomber formation in 1946. Its proven impossible in the current version of the sim...
COMBAT BOX – LEAD GROUP (A)

COMBAT BOX – HIGH GROUP (B)

COMBAT BOX – LOW GROUP (C)

COMBAT WING – Consisting of three Combat boxes

Below are blown up images that are found at the bottom of the combat wing slide for your reference.

COMBAT WING – Top View

COMBAT WING – Tail View

COMBAT WING – Left Side View

COMBAT WING - Below and angled view

-Ry

excelent work!!! nice
now fighter formations and attack tactics bf109 bf110 hurricane & spitfire

[He111]

Nearly perfect smoke Oleg, good enough for ME!! LOL!!

BUT I hope Stuka tactics are up to par. In IL2, stukas just fly till they die, in the original BOB, Stukas would turn into attackers, and use it's slow speed to out stall fighters etc.

Nothing worse than a beautiful looking aircraft with BAD AI!

.

[Rodolphe]

...

Originally Posted by engarde

i can practically smell the fuel and leather,

And the odoriferous and nauseating sweat of the "kanalkrankheit".


...

[proton45]

Wow, RyansPlace... Now that is the way to make a request/comment !!! Clearly and politely stated with illustrations and written text.

I'm really impressed...and I think its a good idea. Keep thinking, I think you are on to something.

[Il2Pongo]

"I'm a huge fan! Would you consider putting a tool in the sim that would allow players to create custom formations?"
That is great work.
But your request would have to be written like this.
"Oleg, could you write the AI routines so that custom formations of up to wing size can be dictated by the user"

We are talking about the AI routines. Likely the weakest part of IL2, and the most challenging for this new game. Or any game. Each of those bombers has to be assigned gun arcs. Each of them likley have to be assigned a take off slot, master bomber, back up master, etc.

Cool idea, but I think its hitting simulation gaming in its weak spot.
Of course, we cannot see the AI in these screen shots. Who knows at this point how good it will be. Maybe great if it can use Cores of a muli core CPU just for AI.

Again, great idea, well presented.

[RyansPlace]

Originally Posted by Il2Pongo

"I'm a huge fan! Would you consider putting a tool in the sim that would allow players to create custom formations?"
That is great work.
But your request would have to be written like this.
"Oleg, could you write the AI routines so that custom formations of up to wing size can be dictated by the user"

We are talking about the AI routines. Likely the weakest part of IL2, and the most challenging for this new game. Or any game. Each of those bombers has to be assigned gun arcs. Each of them likely have to be assigned a take off slot, master bomber, back up master, etc.

Cool idea, but I think its hitting simulation gaming in its weak spot.
Of course, we cannot see the AI in these screen shots. Who knows at this point how good it will be. Maybe great if it can use Cores of a muli core CPU just for AI.

Again, great idea, well presented.

zakkandrachoff, Il2Pongo, proton45, ECV56_Lancelot, and anyone I missed: thanks for the support. I'm hardly trying to hijack this thread, but as I said, this is something i've been struggling with for the better part of a year. It's simply not possible in IL2 due to lack on tools and AI limitations. I've maintained a progress thread with a lot of pics, but earned little notice at the underused IL2 Mission Builder Forum (new tab) on the 1C: Maddox Games site. Feel free to have a look.

Oleg's team does a fantastic job at creating realistic flight sim environments with dazzling effects that simply blows the competition away. Equally great, were the limitations of the tools that allow you to direct how these aircraft interact with the sim world in IL2 1946. This is an area I look to more then the visuals when scanning his weekly updates. I know he keeps a number of cards close to his chest. I hope tools greatly expanding the versatility of the FMB are among them.


Me 109s (AI) maneuver behind a Combat Box of B17's to execute a stern attack. Note: the AI only seems to recognize the closest aircraft initially identified (the lead aircraft in the formation) then maneuvers to the most direct flight path to attack that aircraft while ignoring all others... usually resulting in the fighter either being shot down or colliding with another bomber prior to reaching its target.


Two Combat Wings in action over the Gulf of Finland.


FMB view of two Combat Wings with a P-38J escort. Each aircraft must be placed individually in IL2 1946 and only maintain formation cohesion for a short time (less then 10 minutes) before altitude/airspeed variations stretch the group into a bomber stream.

If understand Oleg, he has up to 40 aircraft in a single formation. This is a good start, but looking down the road, we're going to see a need for even larger ones. Heck, the 1943 8th Air force SOP i'm using requires 60 bombers in a single formation. But that can easily be divided into nine subgroups (see graphics from the first post) of six to seven aircraft each. Numbers aside, I’m encouraged to hear this is being addressed in the next release.

One of the major issues that detract from any sense of historical accuracy is the AI simply can't handle how to attack a large formation. You should be able to program the AI. Add options to the waypoint tab that specifies a priority targets at each waypoint of the flight. Fighters, bombers, ground targets, or avoid enemy contact are the basics. You should also be able to assign what type of attack to perform with a pulldown menu with several options (such as, head on, flank, stern attacks, massed attacks, ect). AI simply can’t make these decisions yet, so it should be left open on the FMB.

Escort fighters should have a ‘wander limit’ option on the waypoint tab that limits how far they will pursue an enemy threat before they break off the engagement and return to there assigned escort group.

To put these into practice: Lets say for example, in the FMB I have a 40 ship formation of German bombers with 12 escort fighters that I want to attack with a group of 20 British fighters. The bombers are broken into two wings of 20 aircraft. The lead wing is assigned the escort with a wander limit of 1000 meters. I take eight of the British fighters and place them ahead of the others with the priority set to 'fighters' on the waypoint. They are the element to draws off the German bomber escorts and otherwise keeps them occupied. The other 12 British fighters have there priority set to 'bombers' with attack type set to 'head on attacks'. Meaning, they will concentrate on the bombers, but only attack from the 12 o'clock position. As the scenario plays out, the escort takes the bait but only tangles with the British fighters until they wander outside the 1000 meter range limit from their assigned escort detail, then immediately breaks off the engagement and attempts to return to the formation. Maneuvering only to avoid British attacks. Once reunited with the formation, they attack British aircraft that pose a threat to there bomber group.

...I know its not fair to compare the issues with Il2 1946 with a next gen. sim that hasn't been released. Perhaps this belongs in the 4.10 patch forum. I just want piece of mind that these particular aspects of the sim will be addressed.

Just a few thoughts.
-Ry

EDIT1: Added captions to the pictures
EDIT2: Typo fixes

[322Sqn_Dusty]

Impressive....

[SlipBall]

Another very nice up-date, I think the shots look great!...the smoke looks good to me as-well

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Originally Posted by RyansPlace

...If understand Oleg, he has up to 40 aircraft in a single formation. This is a good start, but looking down the road, we're going to see a need for even larger ones. Heck, the 1943 8th Air force SOP i'm using requires 60 bombers in a single formation. But that can easily be divided into nine subgroups (see graphics from the first post) of six to seven aircraft each. Numbers aside, I’m encouraged to hear this is being addressed in the next release.

One of the major issues that detract from any sense of historical accuracy is the AI simply can't handle how to attack a large formation. You should be able to program the AI. Add options to the waypoint tab that specifies a priority targets at each waypoint of the flight. Fighters, bombers, ground targets, or avoid enemy contact are the basics. You should also be able to assign what type of attack to perform with a pulldown menu with several options (such as, head on, flank, stern attacks, massed attacks, ect). AI simply can’t make these decisions yet, so it should be left open on the FMB.

Escort fighters should have a ‘wander limit’ option on the waypoint tab that limits how far they will pursue an enemy threat before they break off the engagement and return to there assigned escort group.

To put these into practice: Lets say for example, in the FMB I have a 40 ship formation of German bombers with 12 escort fighters that I want to attack with a group of 20 British fighters. The bombers are broken into two wings of 20 aircraft. The lead wing is assigned the escort with a wander limit of 1000 meters. I take eight of the British fighters and place them ahead of the others with the priority set to 'fighters' on the waypoint. They are the element to draws off the German bomber escorts and otherwise keeps them occupied. The other 12 British fighters have there priority set to 'bombers' with attack type set to 'head on attacks'. Meaning, they will concentrate on the bombers, but only attack from the 12 o'clock position. As the scenario plays out, the escort takes the bait but only tangles with the British fighters until they wander outside the 1000 meter range limit from their assigned escort detail, then immediately breaks off the engagement and attempts to return to the formation. Maneuvering only to avoid British attacks. Once reunited with the formation, they attack British aircraft that pose a threat to there bomber group.....

I understand perfectly, and there is a lot of good ideas. I think you should also post this here

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=6909&page=57

Its the LONG thread of questions and requests about SoW. Even if its long, you must know that Oleg and its team read and follow that thread, most likely you will not get an answer, but surely it will readed by them.