Bomber boys - bbc one

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by 335th_GRAthos

The most beautiful definition of what is 'Victor's Justice'! Thanks for sharing that Bewolf.

I am speechless by the exchange of arguments in this thread. I keep my opinion to myself as this is a flight sim forum and not a political history or war history discussion forum.

But I wonder how many of you gentlemen posting these bold statements in the thread, have actually watched the documentary, all the way to the end of it!



~S~

I did...and the funny thing is I didn't get an overwhelming urge to jump up and down my street shouting 'we won'....'2 world wars and 1 world cup dooo dah!'.......believe it or not.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

I did...and the funny thing is I didn't get an overwhelming urge to jump up and down my street shouting 'we won'....'2 world wars and 1 world cup dooo dah!'.......believe it or not.

Neither do I feel like shooting the gypsie next door or go on a fun trip through Poland.
But then again I also do not try to justify general criminal behaviour.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Neither do I feel like shooting the gypsie next door or go on a fun trip through Poland.
But then again I also do not try to justify general criminal behaviour.

Why? whats wrong with Poland, I thinks it's quite nice, the old town in Warsaw is lovely and the people are really nice too.

not sure what you mean with the rest.

[csThor]

You need to check your irony detector, Bongo. As a german Bewolf is hinting at the same old stereotypes Germany vs Poland that float around since times long forgotten ...

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Ok you explain that to the people that live there (they really do matter)

a land's sovereignty is not to be decided by who lives on it. According to your reasoning, the people that got evicted from Dale Farm should have been given the right to stay there because they've been (illegally) squatting there for years..

in terms of who has a right to whatever........Argentina should belong to the local indigenous tribes.....oh wait....they're all dead because of Spanish colonisation.

that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The fact is that together with its independence, Argentina as it is now received in 1811 the Malvinas from Spain, but Argentinians were kicked out in 1833 because of a British majority on the island. So of course most of the population is of British descendant, this doesn't make it more British. Again, the Dale Farm analogy applies.
Plus hey, it's on the other bloody emisphere, bang in front of Argentina, so maybe it all looks a bit ridiculous and colonialist?
But then again the UK couldn't even let go of Ireland, preferring to shed innocents' blood to keep hold of that. How would you feel if someone from the other emisphere would come in front of our seas and claim the islands as theirs because there's a majority of foreigners living on those islands? Wouldn't you feel threatened and be suspicious about the other country?

BS.....pure and simple, Brit bashing is just 'en vogue' for some reason, any 'war banter' that happens here is no different to the 'roast beefs' or 'crazy tea drinkers' banter that everyone else indulges in.

I love the way your topics always involve a 'I love the UK....but'

Oh puh-lease!!! It's EVERYWHERE: TV, media, even in common language ("grammar-Nazi").. truth is that it's considered a tongue-in-cheek topic, and for some reason having been among the winner means that one should feel entitled to endlessly talk about it.

And yes, I love this country, I abide by its laws, I pay the taxes, I contribute to my community, and if there's something that is not good or could be improved I voice my opinion for the sake of the country itself. I am a better person since I live here, because I know there's the moral grounds for a better society, I never thought the same of my own country.
The fact that I'm of foreign origins doesn't mean I'm less of a citizen, so stop playing that card with me Bongo.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Must disagree here. The Argies do the same things the british do, claiming something on the grounds of their forefathers. Fact is, however, that the Falklands have been british for ages and belong to a fomerly uninhabited island. It's always about people and what they call their home, and if these people feel british, and obviously they do, then it is their own chosing to stay there and within the UK. Neither Britian nor Argentina ought to have a say in the descisions of the people living there. And those you can't blame or steal their homes for the mistakes and maybe criminal behaviour of some admirals several generations ago.

No. Argentina received the Malvinas from Spain in 1811 when it became independent, it's a FACT. The fact that in the meantime British colonies had settled in and kicked out the Argentinians is irrelevant and should be treated as an invasion.

As I said, the ideal solution would be for both countries to let go and let the Falklands be an independent reality. Listening to the majority of the inhabitants, who are of British descent for obvious reasons, is a bit biased, don't you think?

[bongodriver]

a land's sovereignty is not to be decided by who lives on it. According to your reasoning, the people that got evicted from Dale Farm should have been given the right to stay there because they've been (illegally) squatting there for years..

Really?......so a country can just invade another rightfully because the inhabitants have no right of sovereignty......interesting point of view.

The Dale farm residents were evicted because they were there 'illegally'....hence why they were evicted.......ever heard of planning permission? they should have been evicted earlier but in this over beaurocratic country things take forever to process.

that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The fact is that together with its independence, Argentina as it is now received in 1811 the Malvinas from Spain, but Argentinians were kicked out in 1833 because of a British majority on the island. So of course most of the population is of British descendant, this doesn't make it more British. Again, the Dale Farm analogy applies.
Plus hey, it's on the other bloody emisphere, bang in front of Argentina, so maybe it all looks a bit ridiculous and colonialist?

it makes perfect sense, by your own logic the islands never belonged to the Spanish to give away in the first place.....they were very different times mate.

Oh puh-lease!!! It's EVERYWHERE: TV, media, even in common language ("grammar-Nazi").. truth is that it's considered a tongue-in-cheek topic, and for some reason having been among the winner means that one should feel entitled to endlessly talk about it.

There you go confusing Germans with Nazis again

And yes, I love this country, I abide by its laws, I pay the taxes, I contribute to my community, and if there's something that is not good or could be improved I voice my opinion for the sake of the country itself. I am a better person since I live here, because I know there's the moral grounds for a better society, I never thought the same of my own country.
The fact that I'm of foreign origins doesn't mean I'm less of a citizen, so stop playing that card with me Bongo.

I already mentioned my heritage before, no cards being played here.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Greets all. Ok, a number of people have responded so I'll try to answer each in turn.

@Stern. I was answering directly to a point raised by Thor, the 'discussion' has little to do with the OP at present anyway, even morphing into a Falklands debate now apparently.

To answer the point though, I do not particularly 'agree' with the celebration of Harris at all, and do not do so myself. Neither however do I particularly single him out, as Dutch has pointed out he has been made a 'scapegoat' by the latte drinking Guardianista type PC brigade, when far more were actually involved including Churchill himself at the highest level.

so what makes them worse than Harris (apart for the fact that they were fighting for the wrong cause, which again is only relevant to who actually wins the war)?

There is such a thing as a 'just war'. This was an example, in the case of fighting National Socialism, which most sane people would agree on. What we can debate of course is the prosecution of that war, and things like area bombing by all nations, which I do happen to believe was immoral. Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight though, and a pile of history books decades later.

@Thor

I am in no way denying that Germany also had a part in all of this bloodshed (bombing civilian targets, that is) but I simply refuse to engage in pontificating that "my allied raids on civilian targets are less inhuman than your axis raids on civilian targets" and the attempts to retroactively glorify a strategy that did not only cost seveal hundred thousands of civilian lives but also the lives of over 50000 british aircrew for a complete lack of results.

Agreed. Nowhere did I write, and nor do I believe that "my allied raids on civilian targets are less inhuman than your axis raids on civilian targets", neither was any attempt made to 'retro-actively' glorify anything. Neither can be 'morally superior' to the other........neither can ever be 'right' from a Humanitarian standpoint, but 'welcome to war'. Since when did Humanity or niceties have anything to do with it.

@Bewolf

Guys, what you do not get here is that you are not talking to people that participated in or supported that war. On the opposite, this one and all generations since the war actually tried everything possible to make good on it. So giving us quotes and plans from germans from generations before the war does not stick.

I disagree, and it is very pertinent to the discussion. Here is why. Harris was an RFC fighter ace with 5 victories, and had also witnessed the results of the Zeppelin and Gotha bombings of British civilians in WWI with his own eyes.

Having witnessed the lack of German compunction or concern about killing and maiming 1000's British civilians with bombs and incendiaries from the air circa 1915 onwards, I believe this would have had a profound effect upon his outlook regarding Germany, and was probably a contributory factor to the ruthlessness he later evidenced whilst in command in WWII.

The reason I posted the info was to illustrate how these aerial attacks on civilians had a profound effect upon the British psyche, remaining in memory.....and influencing public opinion and indeed official policy in WWII. An overwhelming sense of 'Deja Vu'. Perhaps fostering a determination not to let the same thing happen again....and that next time the enemy will suffer more. Its the 'tit for tat' phenomena evidenced in all conflicts, of all nations and people, which typically escalates.

In conclusion, area bombing was in my opinion undoubtedly 'wrong' on a moral basis, and most certainly nothing to celebrate....but this is easy to say now without personal involvement, and with hindsight. However, had my entire extended family and children been wiped out in the Blitz, I daresay I might be after some form of 'payback', and perhaps even celebrate the enemy suffering as I did, or maybe wanting them to suffer even more.

I can also see the viewpoints of the Bomber pilots in the documentary who expressed little to no remorse, too.....and their reasons for this. I can also understand the British peoples anger, and thoughts of retribution. Its the Human condition and there has never been any real abatement. The age old story of violence begetting violence....which ultimately does nobody any good.

A wise Mahatma once said that 'An eye for an eye.....Will make us all blind'.

He was right.

Cheers.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

@Bewolf

Guys, what you do not get here is that you are not talking to people that participated in or supported that war. On the opposite, this one and all generations since the war actually tried everything possible to make good on it. So giving us quotes and plans from germans from generations before the war does not stick.

I disagree, and it is very pertinent to the discussion. Here is why. Harris was an RFC fighter ace with 5 victories, and had also witnessed the results of the Zeppelin and Gotha bombings of British civilians in WWI with his own eyes.

Having witnessed the lack of German compunction or concern about killing and maiming 1000's British civilians with bombs and incendiaries from the air circa 1915 onwards, I believe this would have had a profound effect upon his outlook regarding Germany, and was probably a contributory factor to the ruthlessness he later evidenced whilst in command in WWII.

The reason I posted the info was to illustrate how these aerial attacks on civilians had a profound effect upon the British psyche, remaining in memory.....and influencing public opinion and indeed official policy in WWII. An overwhelming sense of 'Deja Vu'. Perhaps fostering a determination not to let the same thing happen again....and that next time the enemy will suffer more. Its the 'tit for tat' phenomena evidenced in all conflicts, of all nations and people, which typically escalates.

In conclusion, area bombing was in my opinion undoubtedly 'wrong' on a moral basis, and most certainly nothing to celebrate....but this is easy to say now without personal involvement, and with hindsight. However, had my entire extended family and children been wiped out in the Blitz, I daresay I might be after some form of 'payback', and perhaps even celebrate the enemy suffering as I did, or maybe wanting them to suffer even more.

I can also see the viewpoints of the Bomber pilots in the documentary who expressed little to no remorse, too.....and their reasons for this. I can also understand the British peoples anger, and thoughts of retribution. Its the Human condition and there has never been any real abatement. The age old story of violence begetting violence....which ultimately does nobody any good.

A wise Mahatma once said that 'An eye for an eye.....Will make us all blind'.

He was right.

Cheers.

Great fan of Gandhi here. And actually, of your later stance in your posting.
But your post is kinda contractionary, because by honoring people like Harries you are exactly stirring the pot that make ppl have that "eye for an eye" attitude on all sides involved.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

I do not particularly 'agree' with the celebration of Harris at all, and do not do so myself.

Originally Posted by Bewolf

by honoring people like Harris you are exactly stirring the pot that make ppl have that "eye for an eye" attitude on all sides involved.

(sorry Orville, I know you don't need my help. )