the raw numbers

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by Furio

Are you saying that captured on the ground aircraft shouldn’t be counted? Why not? Air, ground and sea forces fight the same war.
Even if we focus more on air combat, a thing is clear: if Luftwaffe were capable of winning the Battle of Britain, maintain air superiority over Russia, and defend oil fields by Allied bombing, then Germany would have won the war.
If we focus on fighters versus fighter combat, we forget that bombers were the real offensive weapons with a real impact on the battlefield. During war years, Luftwaffe bombers diminished constantly as fighters grew in number constantly, transforming an offensive arm in a purely defensive one.
War ended in April 1945, but Luftwaffe ceased to exist as an organized combat force probably in January, being thoroughly defeated. Almost all of its surviving aircraft were captured before Germany surrender.

If we are talking about the combat capabilities of the aircraft and pilots, then I don't see how ground captures at their home base enters into that. If the pilot lands at the wrong airbase by mistake, then that's a pilot error, but landing at the right base isn't an error that the pilot made, though it may be an error of a higher authority.

The Luftwafe wasn't even close to winning the BoB in hindsight, though it probably wasn't possible to see that at the time.

I'm not sure that the Luftwafe having complete air superiority over Russia would necessarily have resulted in a German win. Russian tanks were very good, and it is hard to destroy tanks from the air. In France, it was morale that the Stukas shattered, which was crucial, but what pecentage of the physical destruction was achieved by the Luftwafe isn't clear and may well have been low.

With the USA in the war, there was no way for Germany to match the overall allied production potential, the USA could have matched them alone, the USSR could have matched them alone, Britain alone might have struggled a bit to free Europe but there was no way a refought BoB in 1941 was anything other than a British win, and the Fleet was hugely powerful.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

.......
The Luftwafe wasn't even close to winning the BoB in hindsight, though it probably wasn't possible to see that at the time.
..........

Thats not what the majority of history books agree to.

The reason for the loss of the bob was the halfhearted way it was conducted by the Fuehrehauptquartier already planning Barbarossa and of course to change the target from fighters to cities.

Anything else i havent seen written.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

If we are talking about the combat capabilities of the aircraft and pilots, then I don't see how ground captures at their home base enters into that.

This is how I see it: ground and air forces advance or retreat together.
Germans captured a lot of Russian aircraft, tanks, cannons, and infantrymen during fast advance in 1941, Russians did the same in 1945.
German army advanced rapidly while Luftwaffe held undisputed air superiority, struggled inconclusively while air superiority passed to and from VVS, then was unable to resist when air superiority ended securely in Russian hands.
This was particularly true on Eastern front, where both air forces fought in close cooperation with ground forces, mainly as flying artillery.

[JoeA]

Furio that is nonsense, not about how important air forces and bombers were for helping (not winning on their own) ground combat but how capturing planes on the ground can be in any way a measure of winning an air war.

Equipemnt loss plays a role but in your examples what worth is it for the Red Army (or the Western armies0 to capture empty LW planes? Planes that were already useless through lack of fuel and trained pilots. The same for the German Army in 1941, most Russian planes were destroyed on the ground, others could not get supplies because of interdiction of their supply. The most important though was lack of trained experienced pilots.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by JoeA

Furio that is nonsense

Maybe is nonsense for you, but is my opinion, and I think that is alleged enough.
Capture equipment is not what matter per se. It’s simply a measure that someone is losing a war and someone other is winning, and the same can be said for air combat kills.
I’ll try to simplify and to explain better my line of thought.
I am a fighter pilot. I fail to intercept enemy bombers than bomb my home base, destroying our aircraft on the ground. My responsibility.
I am a bomber pilot. I fail to destroy a group of enemy tanks that, free to advance, capture my home base. My responsibility.
I am a fighter pilot. I fail to stop enemy bombers that destroy my country’s fuel reserves, emptying our fighters’ tanks. My responsibility.
In real Eastern front warfare, things were more complex and more intertwined, but my simple examples seem to me not less true. Sturmoviki and Ju87 worked closely with infantry and tanks, being instrumental in stopping an attack or breaking through enemy lines.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by robtek

Thats not what the majority of history books agree to.

The reason for the loss of the bob was the halfhearted way it was conducted by the Fuehrehauptquartier already planning Barbarossa and of course to change the target from fighters to cities.

Anything else i havent seen written.

Well, yes, perhaps that's the way to look at it, something on the German side wasn't full steam ahead.

I found this today, while looking for something else:

In the English translation of "Panzer Leader" Guderian is translated as writing:

Meanwhile, the units that had remained in France were busy preparing for Operation Sea-lion. Even from the very beginning this operation was never taken seriously. In my opinion the lack of a sufficiently strong air force and of adequate shipping-not to mention the escape of the British Expeditionary Force from Dunkirk-made it a completely hopeless undertaking. Those two weaknesses-air power and shipping-are surely the best possible proof that Germany had neither intended nor made any preparations for a war against the Western Powers. When in September the autumn storms set in, Operation Sea-lion, which was already dead, was finally buried

I may have been remembering the flavour of that when I said BoB wasn't really winable for the Germans, though I certainly didn't remember it in full.

[robtek]

Yep, thats part of the meaning of my post.
Thx for agreeing Igo_kyu.

[wannabetheace]

try to read my post if u don't mind reading long posts ^^.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by robtek

Yep, thats part of the meaning of my post.
Thx for agreeing Igo_kyu.

I do agree that the Germans weren't fully committed to the BoB.

I am not convinced that if they had been fully committed they could have won with the forces at their disposal. What they might have been able to do if they had made many more aircraft and ships AND the British hadn't increased their own production to match it is a "might have been" of a much vaguer type.

Notice that Guderian says:

the lack of a sufficiently strong air force and of adequate shipping ... made it a completely hopeless undertaking.

Which is to say that in his opinion, the forces they had, even if used to their full potential, were insufficient.

wannabetheace wrote:

try to read my post if u don't mind reading long posts ^^.

I did read it, it seemed very one sided, if you ignore half the evidence on the grounds that it's propaganda, and take all of the other sides propaganda as absolute truth, then you will end up with a very biased and inaccurate position.

[Bobb4]

Flyable planes for the Luftwafe at any given time did not number more than 2000 to 3000 at any given time...
How you get figure of 90 000 planes built I will never know...
Take a look at this link and realise that at any given time the Luftwafe only had about 3000 pilots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaf...ths_(1940-1945)
Not arguing the case as the link is not a source i would overly trust.
Just hearing fantastical figure of planes produces seems nonsense.
I could be wrong but, 90 000 planes?
That would have made the Luftwaffe 18 000 strong during the battle of britain?