Help dogfighting (and moderating speed)

[Haklangr]

Thanks all for the replies and help. I've now been able to shoot down my first enemy fighter, and many light and medium bombers. Couldn't have done it without you. Edit: After this post, I shot down two more (LaGG-3s)! This place is good luck!

However, a few things still confuse me:

1.) For hard turns, if I have to make one, I usually throttle down to 0% briefly, as I've seen others do; I'm not sure exactly on the best timing, though -- I usually have it on 0% throttle for the first half, then go back up to 99/110% (usually) as I pull out of the turn. What should I be doing?

2.) In the 109/a BnZ fighter, what do I do after I blow past the enemy after trying a high angle off shot? I line up the shot, and whether I miss or not I usually find myself heading away from the enemy at some high angle; I then usually try to turn around to have another go, and get a LaGG or P-39 on my tail as a result. Should I be trying for altitude or a lot of separation before doing any turning after an attack run? Is my strategy totally wrong? (Except for bombers, I don't find myself directly behind a lot of enemy planes, so I live on a diet of high angle off shots.)

Edit: After shooting down the two fighters mentioned above, I think just not bleeding off any speed and attaining a wide separation before trying another run is the key. I'm avoiding hard turns (and turning fights) and using speed and altitude to set up shots/disengage. No flaps except combat flaps for particularly hard turns, throttle down for dives and turns and up to 110% sometimes, second-widest FOV: big improvements along with knowing what tactics (speed, altitude... gunnery practice!) to use with a fast but wide-turning fighter. But if I'm getting anything wrong still please tell me -- I'm hardly an ace, even after my magnificent third fighter kill...

I definitely don't know what to do when an enemy is on my six: I assume, with LaGG-3s and P-39s, I'm gonna want to try to outrun or outclimb them, but how to avoid getting poured full of lead while I do this....

Edit 2: Well, those tactics didn't work at all against P-39s. Altitude and speed did alright, but I couldn't outrun them -- so when my diving ambush failed and I tried to disengage, I just wasted a lot of time (seems they can't quite catch me either). I tried again and got one while coming down from on high, and got a second one by engaging in a turning fight. (Then I got shot down by a Yak of some kind...) Either the 109 can maneuver better than the P-39 (I've heard this so, but I think at higher altitudes than I was at -- maybe not), or I just got lucky.

This game is getting extremely fun, though... I'm glad I stuck with it through the frustrating.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by Haklangr

Thanks all for the replies and help. I've now been able to shoot down my first enemy fighter, and many light and medium bombers. Couldn't have done it without you. Edit: After this post, I shot down two more! This place is good luck!

However, a few things still confuse me:

1.) For hard turns, if I have to make one, I usually throttle down to 0% briefly, as I've seen others do; I'm not sure exactly on the best timing, though -- I usually have it on 0% throttle for the first half, then go back up to 99/110% (usually). What should I be doing?

If you have to make one when you are the attacker then you probably didn't plan far enough ahead and aren't thinking because as the attacker you never -have- to turn hard and are probably being suckered.

2.) In the 109/a BnZ fighter, what do I do after I blow past the enemy after trying a high angle off shot? I line up the shot, and whether I miss or not I usually find myself heading away from the enemy at some high angle; I then usually try to turn around to have another go, and get a LaGG or P-39 on my tail as a result. Should I be trying for altitude or a lot of separation before doing any turning after an attack run? Is my strategy totally wrong? (Except for bombers, I don't find myself directly behind a lot of enemy planes, so I live on a diet of high angle off shots.)

Erich Hartmann the 109 Ace with 352 credited kills would plan his attacks to provide an off-angle behind the target exit every time. He did not stay around to mix it up. Go in, approach a point off one side of the target, make "the rude turn" into the enemy and fire then exit behind the target crossing his path and keep running whether he hit or not. It's insanely hard in limited-view sims, he'd be 50m off the target's left wingtip when he turned but I find that turning in from 150m-200m works well. Just don't take the time to aim, when to fire is a matter of timing, less than a second. You'll be so close that aiming is a waste. Make a short burst while pulling to get behind the target. In practice you'll ram many times before you get it right once. With some kind of head tracking (like TIR) it should be a little easier.
Hartmann always did that with much greater speed than the target and exited too fast to chase or turn 135+ deg in time to get a shot. Generally he achieved surprise and if he lost that on the way in he aborted the attack. His record speaks about his tactics and he survived the war.

About hard turns in general:
* don't hard turn more than 45 degrees to make a shot if you are not turn fighting.
* horizontal turns are -the worst- in terms of speed bleed. Use the vertical, Luke, Gravity is "The Force" you want to use.
* watch your speed, don't get even halfway slow and if you start to slow down much, loosen up on the stick till you don't.

*** Don't get Greedy. That is the #1 mistake. Instead of a hard turn, plan a series of moves to give yourself a better shot while retaining your combined speed/height energy.

Edit: After shooting down the two fighters mentioned above, I think just not bleeding off any speed and attaining a wide separation before trying another run is the key.

Good thinking! Keep it up!

I'm avoiding hard turns (and turning fights) and using speed and altitude to set up shots/disengage. No flaps except combat flaps for particularly hard turns, throttle down for dives and turns and up to 110% sometimes, second-widest FOV: big improvements along with knowing what tactics (speed, altitude... gunnery practice!) to use with a fast but wide-turning fighter. But if I'm getting anything wrong still please tell me -- I'm hardly an ace, even after my magnificent third fighter kill...

I definitely don't know what to do when an enemy is on my six: I assume, with LaGG-3s and P-39s, I'm gonna want to try to outrun or outclimb them, but how to avoid getting poured full of lead while I do this....

You can be hard to hit in a barrel roll, especially from close on your six. Johnnie Johnson told about in a P-47 when a German was on his tail he would pull up and roll -- if the German followed he would end up in front.

From farther behind, then a shallow climbing spiral (defensive spiral) will make you very hard to hit and give you a great position to reverse the attack if the enemy drops off. One P-38 Ace shook 4 190's that tried to follow him up. All single-engine props have a better and worse side to turn due to torgue and P-factor while the P-38 does not. As each one tried to pull lead on him they stalled and spun out. He went home rather than pursue but what happens online?

A hard flat turn can keep you safe but leave you more vulnerable than you were. Even if you don't get hit the enemy just scored if you slow down and he doesn't. If you can get someone to crash then that's a "maneuver kill" which IMO counts as more than a "guns kill".

Learn your Basic Combat Maneuvers (BCM's) in practice flight against NO ONE until you don't have to think about them. If you have a load of other things going on (ie COMBAT) then you won't learn as well.
Then learn your Advanced Combat Maneuvers (ACM's) the same way. Put it all together when practicing gunnery and then go to combat to tighten up on the whole including Situational Analysis (SA), knowing what's going on around you.

Another real big topic to research: Energy Management.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

[Haklangr]

Thanks a bunch again, guys! I've been trying some more, rather obsessively, but unfortunately it's been rather discouraging. When I'm not relying on turning and rolling around, vs these P-39s, they fill me full of bullet holes if I don't get them on the first pass (and I usually don't). I pass, they turn damned quick, and I have a P-39 on my tail and I just can't get rid of it once it's there. I'm thinking maybe I'll get away if I have the right exit angle planned and have dived so attained a good speed, but keeping them in my sights on approach usually won't let me keep a good clip up. I might, therefore, keep trying to stick around and dance, since it worked once... unless it's just a terrible idea for Bf-109 vs P-39.

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

If you have to make one when you are the attacker then you probably didn't plan far enough ahead and aren't thinking because as the attacker you never -have- to turn hard and are probably being suckered.

Hmm. I usually have to add a fairly sharp turn near the end of my approaches, as they see me and try to get away. I've tried just breaking off in that case, but with these P-39s I can't seem to get a kill any way except sticking around and trying to be more maneuverable, as they often shoot me down as I leave if I don't get 'em on my first run.

Erich Hartmann the 109 Ace with 352 credited kills would plan his attacks to provide an off-angle behind the target exit every time. He did not stay around to mix it up. Go in, approach a point off one side of the target, make "the rude turn" into the enemy and fire then exit behind the target crossing his path and keep running whether he hit or not. It's insanely hard in limited-view sims, he'd be 50m off the target's left wingtip when he turned but I find that turning in from 150m-200m works well. Just don't take the time to aim, when to fire is a matter of timing, less than a second. You'll be so close that aiming is a waste. Make a short burst while pulling to get behind the target. In practice you'll ram many times before you get it right once. With some kind of head tracking (like TIR) it should be a little easier.
Hartmann always did that with much greater speed than the target and exited too fast to chase or turn 135+ deg in time to get a shot. Generally he achieved surprise and if he lost that on the way in he aborted the attack. His record speaks about his tactics and he survived the war.

Hartmann is definitely the one to imitate in the Bf-109... incredible. I'm trying to do this, as it seems to have been more than a little effective, but as I mention above I don't seem to be able to approach and exit at a high enough speed to get away from P-39s -- maybe I just have to work on not losing all my dive speed on approach, though. I also don't get nearly that close before making "the rude turn" (bit of Hartmann terminology there?) -- I gather Hartmann ended up flying almost alongside them before turning, whereas I often feel I must aim to intersect their path from a much greater distance, else risk losing them. This might be because I find it difficult to achieve the element of surprise, though, especially after my initial approach and I'm in the thick of it.

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Try adding an upward element to the turn - not exactly following the enemys path. Called a high yo-yo. Or try to turn not at all. Pull up somewhat, and then roll your plane to where you want to go, level out again - facing the direction you wanted to turn to but with less energy loss - because you used the roll axis to change your direction.

This has been very effective.

At an altitude below 5000m I's say that is the best match you can get - the P-39 is a superb plane in the hands of a good pilot.

Shit.

:p I'll try to lure 'em up, though. I tried once already, but I got oil (right?) all over my windscreen as some jerk riddled me with cannon rounds. Either that or he shot my eyes out. Seems my slow climbing spiral was lacking in either climb or spiral, heh.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Haklangr

Thanks a bunch again, guys! I've been trying some more, rather obsessively, but unfortunately it's been rather discouraging. When I'm not relying on turning and rolling around, vs these P-39s, they fill me full of bullet holes if I don't get them on the first pass (and I usually don't). I pass, they turn damned quick, and I have a P-39 on my tail and I just can't get rid of it once it's there. I'm thinking maybe I'll get away if I have the right exit angle planned and have dived so attained a good speed, but keeping them in my sights on approach usually won't let me keep a good clip up. I might, therefore, keep trying to stick around and dance, since it worked once... unless it's just a terrible idea for Bf-109 vs P-39.

It is a terrible idea. Maybe if its the last enemy then you can try. P-39 outturn you, outroll you, and they keep their energy better when maneuvering. Up to 5000m they are almost as fast as you, around 3000m they are even faster than you. Look it up in IL2COMPARE:
http://www.zg26.de/index.php?option=...ges&Itemid=135
Or try and fly P-39 in the Quick misson builder vs. Bf109. If you don't hamfist it - and keep it reasonably fast it is an absolute joy to fly. And its armament doesn't do damage -it destroys.

Originally Posted by Haklangr

Hmm. I usually have to add a fairly sharp turn near the end of my approaches, as they see me and try to get away. I've tried just breaking off in that case, but with these P-39s I can't seem to get a kill any way except sticking around and trying to be more maneuverable, as they often shoot me down as I leave if I don't get 'em on my first run.

The question is what do you want to achieve - survive the engagement at all costs -or shoot the enemy down at any cost. If you follow them for too long you will give away your energy advantage. You will slow down, and then, you will have no options left. If you turn -they can follow you, if you roll, they can follow you, and because you are slow, they can initially follow you in a climb or a dive and shoot at you.

Sure if you break soon enough, you will not always get a shot off - but you will learn in time where to shoot at an evading enemy.

You can try to dive even below the enemy, and then attack them with a speed advantage from below - sometimes they don't spot you.

But maybe it would be best for now if you would pick an easier enemy for now - either by setting the enemy to novice -or by not flying vs. P39. They are a very unforgiving enemy, as they leave you only the climb advantage (and the speed advantage high up).
Or fly at an earlier date - the G-2 or F-4 model of the 109 offer better performance than the G-6 -despite their earlier availability.

[Haklangr]

Thanks again, majorfailure; you've been extremely helpful. Heck, you're now the reason I'm still playing, really (see below!).

Well, I'm "good" enough to shoot down a couple enemy aircraft on most missions, now -- as long as my plane is as good as or better than the enemy's. I am, however, absolutely clueless as to how to improve vs. superior machines.

Or mostly-superior. The P-39 might not be superior to the Bf-109 (G6) in every respect, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to use the few advantages I do possess... namely, climb rate and better throttle performance at altitudes above 5000m. I cannot seem to use climb rate to get away after an attack run; I get shot down every time, no matter if I point my plane near-vertical or do a gentle climbing spiral. I can't just outrun them, since they are just as fast as I am; and as they maneuver better than I do, it seems like I have no viable tactics left if BnZ is untenable!

This leaves me only altitude. Well, I can avoid getting shot down if I refuse to go low, since they refuse to go high; I've been trying to lure them up there, but no dice. It's actually extremely frustrating to me; I nearly gave up on the game altogether, in fact. Just thinking about it makes me mad still, heh. (C'mon, they can out-roll and out-run me? Haklangr is not perfect?! *throws joystick*) How is this matchup possible unless P-39 makes a huge mistake?! I know some matches, one must just avoid, but I didn't think this was one of them.

But when I'm tired of tempting myocardial rage-infarctions, I take majorfailure's advice and have been trying out other Bf (and Fw) models and fighting other enemy aircraft... and it's back to being challenging, fun, and exciting.

[MaxGunz]

When you fly, are you keeping The Ball near or at center? If not, you can get more speed by doing that.

IRL you would feel when it's out (a pull to one side like when turning a car) which no sim gives. So you have to develop the habit of ruddering about enough but you can with flying practice. and spot checks on that black ball in the curved track for feedback on when you have it right. It has a minor to major effect on your speed and acceleration.

Another speed-factor is your elevator trim. Trimmed nose high, you will never get your full speed and your acceleration will suck. Trim changes with speed and power settings as it does IRL. When you want speed it's better to be trimmed a tiny bit nose down and have to pull back a teensy bit that to be trimmed nose up and have to push. But coming into tight turns you want just the opposite since you will slow down while turning and -need- more and more nose up trim!

And last for now is how hard you hold your stick (with appropriate low-humor jokes) and -not- resting the weight of your arm on the stick. In practice flight you don't need to shoot, what I was taught is to hold the stick with just 2 fingers and thumb to force myself to be a light touch on the controls. Not resting arm weight on the stick is a ***VERY*** hard habit to break. When I get it right, I maneuver much better! When I tire out and rest my hand on the stick I fly more sluggish, ham-handed.

I can't emphasize how important practicing just flying and perfecting your BCM's and ACM's and control habits is. Once you know your maneuvers well and have your habits tuned you will do better and find setting up tactics far easier.

If you could conquer this game in a month, that's all it would be worth and there wouldn't much community around it.

BTW, there are scenarios when it's stacked against you. For Russians it's worst in 41-42 and for Germans it's 44-45. If it's not the planes or lack of firepower (Early-war Russians, play as Germans first time through!) that gets you, it will be numbers. If you didn't have these, you would miss a major aspect of the historic war feeling of being the underdog.
If it gets you down then go practice flying and work on your speed and those maneuvers that failed you. Conquering maneuvers and your own habits isn't as satisfying as shooting a plane down but flying better has it's own rewards that will continue to pay past the next 100 shoot-downs.

[tota]

I enjoyed "In pursuit - A Pilot’s Guide to Online Air Combat" by Johan Kylander a lot, you can find it on the net. Was an eye-opener for me ...

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by Haklangr

I can't just outrun them, since they are just as fast as I am; and as they maneuver better than I do, it seems like I have no viable tactics left if BnZ is untenable!

You bring up an important point, which most like to ignore, but one does end up in these situations and if you're not prepared for this - and all you get, is shot down.

So.. how does one prepare for this.. You practice TnB moves at all speeds down to stall speed, at all heights.. especially at ZERO feet.
Your best combination is Zero feet at Stall Speed (there is no room for error) - learn how your fav plane reacts here.. and very few will beat you.

You'll know when you have your man when his a/c starts wobbling or he runs away for 'advantage'

[JtD]

Any P-39 easily outturns a 109G-6 at sea level, and added to that, you're exposing yourself to every other fighter in the area. A 109 turning on the deck is always a welcome sight as it means an easy kill.

Mind you, the P-39 generally is very tough opposition for a 109G-6 in game. I tend to engage them only from an advantageous position, and then on my terms. Which usually involves high altitude spiral climbs. If I don't have the advantage, I'll come back with the advantage and if that's not possible, I just disengage. At sea level, it is possible to outrun all but the Q-10, so in case of emergency, I just dive for the deck and keep running.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

You practice TnB moves at all speeds down to stall speed, at all heights.. especially at ZERO feet.
Your best combination is Zero feet at Stall Speed (there is no room for error) - learn how your fav plane reacts here.. and very few will beat you.

So how hard can you turn at or very near stall speed?

Or is this advice you give to make your potential targets easy?