omg the meserchmitch i so easy to shoot with the spit i love it

[NaBkin]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Salute

The documentary is riddled with inaccuracies... 55 seconds of firing for the Germans... No. For their MG's maybe, not for cannon. No mention of the mere 7 seconds of cannon ammunition, nor of the cannon's extremely low velocity or poor trajectory, absolutely the worst type of weapon to use for dogfight deflection shooting.

And the comments about "...long wide curves" are in relation to a 109 pilot escaping, as are all the comments about negative G.

I'll post again:



People have a little trouble with reading it appears.

IN EVERY CASE

The German report says nothing about "long wide curves" or any other method. This is a guide which was issued to all of the 109 Staffel commanders.

The documentary relies entirely on anecdote and not factual, objective tests. As per the excerpt I posted above, there were tests done of the 109E vs Allied planes by the Germans, but also by the French, British, and Russian. Guess what? They all agreed, the 109E did not turn well, it was inferior to French, British and Soviet planes in that regard. Both the British and Soviet tests, indicated a turn time of approx. 25 seconds.

I can provide anecdotes and combat reports which suggest the Hurricane was faster than the 109E, the following details how a Hurricane pilot chased down and shot down a 109E:



Here's a link to another report where a Hurricane chased down a 109E

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ler-7oct40.pdf

Does that mean the Hurricane was always faster than the 109E? No, they're just anecdotes of a situation which happened in combat.

The British did at least 4 separate different tests of the 109 vs Hurricanes and Spitfires, and all the tests were conclusive. At all speeds and in all types of turn contests, the Spitfires and Hurricanes were superior. Below one with Hurricane:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ricane-109.pdf

Yes, the Germans liked their plane, it had definite advantages, but it also had weaknesses, and turn contests were often fatal.

Yes, any plane can outturn any plane given the most optimum circumstance, ie. full fuel on one, nearly empty on another, one with superior alt or E etc. But in a balanced situation, the 109E was not a good choice to turnfight in. Which is why the German pilots who knew the facts made their recommendations for 109E's not to turn fight.

This is a wonderful example of a wishful thinking thread made up by someone who obviously can't master the skill required to fight in the vertical and is letting his frustration get the better of him rather than working on improving his skills.

So what do you personally think of the CLoD plane's perfomance? Which planes do you fly and do you think they are "historical correct" (if one can say so about a PC Sim).

I think it's common sense, that the 109 turns worse than most of the Red planes. It's well modeled in Clod I think.

But the problem I have with the game is that if I have a Spit on my 6 I have no chances to deal with her whatsoever. You can't outturn it, neither can you outclimb it fast enough (only if you are out of shooting range) nor dive away. It just sticks at your 6, only chance is that you are the better pilot and manage to make it loose you in wild maneuvres.

Every time i sit in a Spit or even in a Hurri I have a much better Kill ratio than in my 109. And that's the problem I have with Clod at the moment:
If you have two equally skilled pilots, the 109 almost every time looses. I have a good ratio if I fly with my squad mates, because then it's all about communication and discipline. But if I fly alone I feel like I sit in a defenisve-only plane. It's so much easier to fly the spit. And I'm just no sure if this was the case back then in 1940. And this is only early war, let alone 1944...

[raaaid]

climbing performance influences turning performance

i would out turn zeros in my spit 25lbs(il246) in a climbing spiral by spit superior climbing ability which in the end means better turning in an upwards spiral

edit:

playing this game i get the feeling british engineering is amazing and german one not so much, like oh yeah now i understand why the war was won and what car ill buy

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by NaBkin

So what do you personally think of the CLoD plane's perfomance? Which planes do you fly and do you think they are "historical correct" (if one can say so about a PC Sim).

I think it's common sense, that the 109 turns worse than most of the Red planes. It's well modeled in Clod I think.

But the problem I have with the game is that if I have a Spit on my 6 I have no chances to deal with her whatsoever. You can't outturn it, neither can you outclimb it fast enough (only if you are out of shooting range) nor dive away. It just sticks at your 6, only chance is that you are the better pilot and manage to make it loose you in wild maneuvres.

Every time i sit in a Spit or even in a Hurri I have a much better Kill ratio than in my 109. And that's the problem I have with Clod at the moment:
If you have two equally skilled pilots, the 109 almost every time looses. I have a good ratio if I fly with my squad mates, because then it's all about communication and discipline. But if I fly alone I feel like I sit in a defenisve-only plane. It's so much easier to fly the spit. And I'm just no sure if this was the case back then in 1940. And this is only early war, let alone 1944...

I don't consider myself an expert, but I can see where the advantages and disadvantages lie.

The question is, what altitude do you fight at?

If you are fighting on the deck for any length of time, at some time you are inevitably going to find yourself in the situation you describe, ie. with a Spitfire on your six. If its a Hurricane on your six, then you really have been asleep at the wheel.

Most successful 109 pilots caught on the deck use scissors or a series of bunts into dives and then zooms, then repeat, or a combination of both to get a Spit off their tail, and they make sure they keep their speed up. Do you have those skills?

On the other hand, I watch a lot of 109 pilots come over with the bombers, sit on top of them and prey on the Spits and Hurricanes below. At those altitudes, there is no competition, the 109's rule. On the remote chance a Hurricane or Spit IIA has taken 20 minutes to climb up to 20,000 ft and attacks from higher alt, the 109 maneuvers a bit, and the Spit/Hurri loses its e, then the 109 is in the drivers seat. In emergencies, you just dive away at max speed, Hurricanes or Spits following will lose parts at those speeds.

As far as what planes I fly in CoD, usually Red side, although I have flown the 109 quite a number of times, all models, E1/E3/E4, as well as the G50 and 110. I found the 109 very easy to fly compared to the British planes, the opposite of historical, no overheating at all unless you actually don't open the rad, but basically it's open to 3/4 and then forget, there are none of the real life takeoff or landing issues the plane had, and even when running manual pitch, seems impossible to overrev the engine unless you are a complete numbnuts. It doesn't sustain turn with the British planes in my experience, but it does accelerate like a rocket in a dive, and turns well enough to allow plenty of shots out of a boom and zoom. Also rolls extremely well, better than the Spit or Hurri. The boost can be left at 1.35 ata forever, not accurate, and 1.45 can be used as often as you like and for longer than than the 1 minute allowed historically. And the trim never seems to be an issue, even though the historical 109 needed rudder adjustments at most speeds, the plane may show the ball off center, but it doesn't seem to cause it to actually yaw much.

What planes are modelled accurately in CoD? None of them. The G50 is probably the closest. The 109 is definitely wrong in any number of ways, some of which I mention above, also it is too slow on the deck, climbs worse than it should over approx. 3000 meters, and should have a ceiling 3000 meters higher than the game plane. But its climb is not as far off as the British planes, which are also slow.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by swift

Uhm, use a bit of imagination *hinthint*

This manoeuvre might have been in many cases a good excape manoeuvre because of a speed advantage of the 109 combined perhaps with a better climb performance when using a slow climb rate. With enough speed advantage there is no way a plance could catch up just by short cutting when the curve is wide enough however nimble the chasing plane was but it allowed to keep an eye on the pursuing aircraft which was likely the reason to fly a wide curve

"Long wide curves" are not going to allow a 109 to outturn a Spitfire which has decent speed. And they are only going to allow the 109 to keep away from the Spit unless the 109 is carrying more speed, because the Spit can always cut inside the circle.

It's all about speed. 109's simply have to keep their speed up.

[swift]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

"Long wide curves" are not going to allow a 109 to outturn a Spitfire which has decent speed. And they are only going to allow the 109 to keep away from the Spit unless the 109 is carrying more speed, because the Spit can always cut inside the circle.

It's all about speed. 109's simply have to keep their speed up.

Please reread and try to understand my post. Where did I say that a wide curve was destined to outturn a Spit? I lol because it is so absurd to believe that a wide curve would help to outturn another plane. Even a B17 could turn with a plane that is going in a wide curve.

What I said is that the wide curve was probably in order to keep an eye on the pursuing plane (going straight would have meant to have the pursuer on one's blind spot) while maintaining high speed. So, presuming a speed and acceleration advantage of the 109 over the spit a wide curve is just the perfect escape manoeuvre against a spit.

[Hood]

Originally Posted by swift

Please reread and try to understand my post. Where did I say that a wide curve was destined to outturn a Spit? I lol because it is so absurd to believe that a wide curve would help to outturn another plane. Even a B17 could turn with a plane that is going in a wide curve.

What I said is that the wide curve was probably in order to keep an eye on the pursuing plane (going straight would have meant to have the pursuer on one's blind spot) while maintaining high speed. So, presuming a speed and acceleration advantage of the 109 over the spit a wide curve is just the perfect escape manoeuvre against a spit.

Plus there was the egg-shaped turn - a long curve followed by a sharp turn, then a long curve to get energy again.

Hood

[swift]

Yes, I read about this kind of manoeuvre that helped seasoned pilots in 109 to keep on the tail of a spit - at least in some circumstances. I believe that this kind of manoeuvre is only possible for a less well turning plane, that is one that looses energy quickly in turns, when the acceleration is high enough in order to regain quickly the speed lost in the previous tight turn. Helas, I do think that the acceleration as modelled in the game is too bad for the 109. Since the old IL2 and the discussion I always found that too little focus was put on acceleration. Heated discussions were always running on max speed and turning performance. But rarely to never about acceleration which is imho as important. Too be honest I do think that the 109 accelerates like a heavy truck rather than a decent limousine.

[lonewulf]

Originally Posted by swift

Uhm, use a bit of imagination *hinthint*

This manoeuvre might have been in many cases a good excape manoeuvre because of a speed advantage of the 109 combined perhaps with a better climb performance when using a slow climb rate. With enough speed advantage there is no way a plance could catch up just by short cutting when the curve is wide enough however nimble the chasing plane was but it allowed to keep an eye on the pursuing aircraft which was likely the reason to fly a wide curve

Hahahah...."use a bit of imagination". Funny one. Actually I did use my imagination and that's where the problem starts. I imagined using 'long wide curves' in combat with Spitfires and on every occasion that I did, I ended up burning to death in my cockpit. Most Red or Blue players probably employ 'long wide curves' as a precautionary measure to avoid unpleasant surprises developing behind them. I certainly do - particularly at altitude. But with all due deference to the shot down German airman, this won't save you once you're actually in a fight. Once you're in a fight, and you have a Spit or Hurricane looming up behind you, a 'long wide curve' will simply reduce the amount of time required for the Red pilot gets into gun range. You can use your 'long wide curve' approach to salvation if you wish but, for me, having already applied my imagination to the proposition, I feel compelled to look elsewhere.

[WTE_Galway]

It's kinda lucky development of the sim has stopped and we never got a 190.

Historically nothing the British had could catch the 190 on the deck except the Tiffy which was in the process of being cancelled as surplus to current requirements

[lonewulf]

Originally Posted by NaBkin

...the problem I have with the game is that if I have a Spit on my 6 I have no chances to deal with her whatsoever. You can't outturn it, neither can you outclimb it fast enough (only if you are out of shooting range) nor dive away. It just sticks at your 6, only chance is that you are the better pilot and manage to make it loose you in wild maneuvres.

Every time i sit in a Spit or even in a Hurri I have a much better Kill ratio than in my 109. And that's the problem I have with Clod at the moment:
If you have two equally skilled pilots, the 109 almost every time looses. I have a good ratio if I fly with my squad mates, because then it's all about communication and discipline. But if I fly alone I feel like I sit in a defenisve-only plane. It's so much easier to fly the spit. And I'm just no sure if this was the case back then in 1940. And this is only early war, let alone 1944...

I think in a way you've answered your own question. Typically, the Luftwaffe (like most air forces) took, or came to the view, that the smallest viable unit in air combat is two. Flying on your own usually has just one outcome - particularly if you are engaged by multiple bad guys at the same time. Sure you can do well on some trips but over time the balance sheet is unlikely to be very healthy - this is certainly my own experience. If you want to do well your best bet is to get on coms and fly as a team. Having said that, I think there are a couple of things you can do to increase your chances of survival in a 109 when flying alone, but you will always be at a serious disadvantage, especially when flying against Spits and Hurricanes that perform at least as well as you in most respects and in some respects far better.
First and foremost, fly and fight at altitude. My rule, which I unfortunately break all the time, is to fly above 3k at all times and preferably much higher. Do not allow a situation to develop (low alt) where an ability to turn can become decisive. Stay high and only engage aircraft that are at a tactical disadvantage - ie, below you. If you are taken by surprise by a Spit or Hurricane that is higher or is co-alt but has greater speed; dive away and keep diving (the 109 dives well but a Spit is almost as good so keep it right on the edge). Do not attempt to re-engage. If you happen to engage an aircraft that attempts to take the fight down near the deck, break-off and return to altitude. Avoid sustained fighting wherever possible. It's far too easy to be taken unaware by an unseen bandit. If your initial attacks fail, (say 2-3 passes) break-off and look for another target. Always assume that the target aircraft has a wingman.
Finally, what should you do do if you find yourself well below 3k and in a situation where an enemy attack is imminent, ie, where diving away isn't a viable solution and you have an enemy behind you in a co-alt and possibly co-E state, ready to attack? What can be done to escape and possibly regain the initiative? Sometimes the answer is that very little can be done but there are two things that help. Firstly, if your in an E 1 or 3, always ensure that your prop pitch is set for max power. Never let this slip because in bad situations a lost second or 3 can mean everything. Next, initiate a 'step-climb'. Whereas sustained climb works when you have a distant threat, 'step-climbing' is a better response to a more immediate threat. To do this, firstly level out as quickly as possible without bleeding speed and at the same time use your pitch controls to achieve the highest possible acceleration. Once you have reached 350-400k (IAS) set prop pitch for climb and lift the nose. When airspeed drops to about 300ks level out again and adjust pitch controls for acceleration. Repeat this 3 or 4 times and you should have a significant vertical and horizontal distance between you and your would be attacker. At this point you can now wipe your brow, look back and start planning your counter attack.