Proper Path before Demonis?

[Saridu]

It's strange, the first four viking islands are very rigid , we all felt railroaded and forced to use less than great viking units (okay I'll make an exception for soothsayers - that loki's touch ability is fantastic! - but usless against the hordes of undead good design).

But once you get to Darion, the game suddenly opens up and you can get human, viking, elves and orcs with some dwarves thrown in, with as little as one quest gate!

Strange approach, I think they were trying to build authenticity (Vikings fight with a viking army!) - and make no loss more challenging (if that's your thing) by making the vikings crappy is comparison to the other races.

I mean who arrived it Darion and thought, hah Rune mages, Royal griffens and Paladins! Who needs them, I' going back to the homeland for another full army of vikings!

Before i get bashed just pointing out that the vikings aren't imho a good balanced army, I would takes even dwarves any day over them. Now maidens are good - if you can get them in sufficent numbers, soothsayers as I said above are good for the Loki's touch, Jarls are okay as tanks go but numbers again could be a problem, I've seen 30ish can't see it been viable (Note I haven't played past Demonis so I don't know if the Viking islands replenish at that point) - I would take Royal Griffens over them in a heartbeat (even with the bugged morale bonus to humans)

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by Saridu

It's strange, the first four viking islands are very rigid , we all felt railroaded and forced to use less than great viking units (okay I'll make an exception for soothsayers - that loki's touch ability is fantastic! - but usless against the hordes of undead good design).

But once you get to Darion, the game suddenly opens up and you can get human, viking, elves and orcs with some dwarves thrown in, with as little as one quest gate!

Strange approach, I think they were trying to build authenticity (Vikings fight with a viking army!) - and make no loss more challenging (if that's your thing) by making the vikings crappy is comparison to the other races.

I mean who arrived it Darion and thought, hah Rune mages, Royal griffens and Paladins! Who needs them, I' going back to the homeland for another full army of vikings!

Before i get bashed just pointing out that the vikings aren't imho a good balanced army, I would takes even dwarves any day over them. Now maidens are good - if you can get them in sufficent numbers, soothsayers as I said above are good for the Loki's touch, Jarls are okay as tanks go but numbers again could be a problem, I've seen 30ish can't see it been viable (Note I haven't played past Demonis so I don't know if the Viking islands replenish at that point) - I would take Royal Griffens over them in a heartbeat (even with the bugged morale bonus to humans)

I generally agree on most points. It was weird they put things on rails for a good chunk of the initial gameplay, and then suddenly let you go pretty much wild (though not completely).

I don't think they INTENTIONALLY made the vikings bad. They actually have a decent group of units:

Skald, Berserker, Soothsayer, Jarl, Maiden

That's a pretty decent force. Jarls tank, Maidens and Berserkers do good damage, soothsayer and resurrect are solid, skald supports. Heck, Jotuns are a complete beefcake unit if you want to load them up, though they aren't particularly good other than that.

The issue really, is that the Human units are INCREDIBLY strong now. Royal Griffons + Paladins was already a good strong combination before the degenerate rune mage unit was added. As cool as the Maidens are, Paladin's are that, plus a total tank, and do AoE heals, which are often more valuable.

Heck, even the human Bowmen is much much stronger than most other archers, due to its ability to slow, chill, and burn targets, depending on the need of the scenario.

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

The issue really, is that the Human units are INCREDIBLY strong now. Royal Griffons + Paladins was already a good strong combination before the degenerate rune mage unit was added. As cool as the Maidens are, Paladin's are that, plus a total tank, and do AoE heals, which are often more valuable.

Yes, I agree Viking units are not bad at all, Soothsayers are incredibly strong in later stages (Loki's Touch is the best spell ever and they also do terrific damage with their blizzard AND their range attack). Berserkers can win most battles almost on their own, if you don't mind ressing and replenish them all the time, Maidens and Jarls are also great. Vikings, Jotuns and the slingshot guys are average but not bad. And I've never used Skalds, they seem like a waste of slot (but I can be wrong). So Vikings - great.

Yes, Humans are powerful but frankly, I grew a bit tired of Paladins and Royal Griffins over the last three KB games. Moreover Paladin ressing is great but bit of a hassle. You always need a turn extra to huddle your units around Pals.

In CW I much preferred an elf army with lots of spawns, shooters, charmers and non-retaliation melee units. Of course in WoTN the Humans are much more convenient because they're ideal for fighting the undead whereas the elves suck at that.

[namad]

Originally Posted by Karlos

Yes, I agree Viking units are not bad at all, Soothsayers are incredibly strong in later stages (Loki's Touch is the best spell ever and they also do terrific damage with their blizzard AND their range attack). Berserkers can win most battles almost on their own, if you don't mind ressing and replenish them all the time, Maidens and Jarls are also great. Vikings, Jotuns and the slingshot guys are average but not bad. And I've never used Skalds, they seem like a waste of slot (but I can be wrong). So Vikings - great.

Yes, Humans are powerful but frankly, I grew a bit tired of Paladins and Royal Griffins over the last three KB games. Moreover Paladin ressing is great but bit of a hassle. You always need a turn extra to huddle your units around Pals.

In CW I much preferred an elf army with lots of spawns, shooters, charmers and non-retaliation melee units. Of course in WoTN the Humans are much more convenient because they're ideal for fighting the undead whereas the elves suck at that.

loki's touch has a limit of ~80% of the leadership of your stack so if you're facing off against a lot of strong/very strong/deadly enemies it'll be almost useless (like if you're doing a mage impossible playthrough) although on a skald-normal playthrough I can imagine it being the best ability in the game! (the ai is borked and basically treats the rabid unit as if it's hypnotized and wastes all of it's turns attacking it all out like a fool)

compare to some of the weaker elf abilities working on 150% leadership, or infinite leadership and it seems a bit stronger even if the effects are weak (1 turn of fighting, or a few turns of sleep) then engineer's blind is infinite leadership and aoe!

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by namad

loki's touch has a limit of ~80% of the leadership of your stack so if you're facing off against a lot of strong/very strong/deadly enemies it'll be almost useless (like if you're doing a mage impossible playthrough) although on a skald-normal playthrough I can imagine it being the best ability in the game! (the ai is borked and basically treats the rabid unit as if it's hypnotized and wastes all of it's turns attacking it all out like a fool)

compare to some of the weaker elf abilities working on 150% leadership, or infinite leadership and it seems a bit stronger even if the effects are weak (1 turn of fighting, or a few turns of sleep) then engineer's blind is infinite leadership and aoe!

True, on Impossible it would probably be close to useless. But on my first Normal playthrough it was magnificent, precisely because the rabid stack becomes the top priority for the AI.

As for the elf CC abilities, AFAIK they don't work on undead (charm, sleep etc.) that's why elves suck at fighting the horde (also ranged attacks are weak against skeleton archers and ghosts and poison damage is weak on all undead). And I've never tried the engineer, does blinding work on undead?

[Nevar]

Originally Posted by Karlos

True, on Impossible it would probably be close to useless. But on my first Normal playthrough it was magnificent, precisely because the rabid stack becomes the top priority for the AI.

As for the elf CC abilities, AFAIK they don't work on undead (charm, sleep etc.) that's why elves suck at fighting the horde (also ranged attacks are weak against skeleton archers and ghosts and poison damage is weak on all undead). And I've never tried the engineer, does blinding work on undead?

I agree with those points. Blinding worked on undead in CW. I assume it works that way in WotN. Only works on 1-4, but then, the only level 5 Undead is the Bone Dragon.

And yeah, Elves aren't really equipped to fight undead, even if unicorns do get bonuses against them. I can sort of see why the Elves fell against the undead in KB:TL now.

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Nevar

even if unicorns do get bonuses against them.

Yeah, forgot about them. And in fact they're fantastic. I only used them in the last fight of the game, where you get all-elven army but it seemed to me they do vastly more damage to the undead than the Inquisitors which I used all the time. Even though the Inquisitors have higher bonus (50 % vs. 30 % of unicorns).