On the subject of Free-To-Play and MMOs

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Yeah I'm not talking about making it free, though. I'm perfectly happy to pay an upfront price for the sim and for subsequent expansion packs, just like we did with 1946.

So we agree, and both realize, that here in the real world, those who make flight sims don't make as much $ on their efforts as those who make other types of games.. Hence the need to generate revenue beyond the initial cost of the game.. I am all for it! Be it the traditional IL-2 sequel money model or the RoF DLC model.. or even the pay to play model be it hourly or monthly or something else..

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Depends on your definition of "serious flight simmer"...

Agreed..

To clarify, serious typically means the types that don't play any other types of games.. As in only flight sims!

Back in the day of flight simming.. we referred to them as hard core simmers..

Of which I don't even fit the definition!

Today.. I would say a serious simmer is the type that only plays realistic military types of games.. Where most of which are flight sims or first person shooters.. That is the category that fits me best, but I will admit I have played 'other' types of games in the past.. But they typically don't hold my interest for very long.. I think what makes me a serious flight simmer is that I always come back to flight simming.. In 20+ years I have not lost interest in playing flight sims.. Where I have lost interest in other types of games

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I'm not in university any more; I can't spend 4+ hours every night playing video games and so being charged a monthly fee is a rip-off for me.

I'm 100% against being charged for time you spend not playing the game.

That depends..

As I noted, sometimes it is cheaper to play the monthly flat rate over the hourly charge.. At least that was the case for me when I played warbirds.. When they changed hourly my monthly bill was around $300+ and I even got a bill for $1,000+ once! When they switched to the monthly flat rate my bill dropped down to less than $200/month.. So it all depends

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Maybe if I was retired, in my 60's with no dependants and had lots of disposable income then I could get away with it

It is not age based at all..

It has more to do with 'what you do' in life..

Take me for example, a basic engineering job allows me enough disposable income and time to pay to play and still support several dependants, dogs, contribute to 401ks, and pay bills in general

We should not force game makers to cater to the lowest common denominator!

Put another way, I don't want to play a flight sim that any starbuck's barista can afford!

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

It is not age based at all.. It has more to do with 'what you do' in life.. Take me for example, a basic engineering job allows me enough disposable income and time to pay to play with several dependants, dogs, and bills in general

That is to say

We should not force game makers to cater to the lowest common denominator!

It's not a question of money: X dollars a month won't make or break most peoples' budgets.

It's a question of time: If I was in my 60s and retired I'd have all sorts of free time to play video games and still do enough around the house to avoid pissing my wife off.

I can afford the game financially but if I were to get busy and not have time to play then I'd be getting charged for not playing the game and not getting my money's worth.

I play sports, I ski, I go out for dinner/movie nights, etc etc etc. Why would I voluntarily accept being charged money for time I spend not playing the game?

Put another way, I don't want to play a flight sim that any starbucks baristas can afford!

Meh, that's elitist. I'm not one to dismiss someone based on how much money they make or where they work.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Why would I voluntarily accept being charged money for time I spend not playing the game?

Because as I pointed out, sometimes it works out to be cheaper to pay a flat rate than an hourly rate

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Meh, that's elitist. I'm not one to dismiss someone based on how much money they make or where they work.

Elitist?

Not at all, I am simply stating the fact that some poeople, for what ever reason, make more $ than others. And that we should not expect game makers to cater to those who have to choose between paying for a game or new shoes for thier kids

[CaptainDoggles]

Whatever.

My point is, if they go Free2Play (which means pay2win and cheaters) or subscription-fee (rip-off), then I quite simply will not purchase the sequel, no matter how good it is.

If that means no more WWII simming for a long time? Oh well, I'll have to live with that disappointment, I guess. But I'm not going to support the F2P or monthly-fee system, no matter how badly I would like to fly a Yak-1 with awesome physics/graphics/sound.

I'd just wish they'd hurry up and at least release some details. They probably think that they're building hype and anticipation, but what they're really doing is the opposite.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Whatever.

Well look at the bright side..

At least we both agree that those who make flight sims need to generate revenue beyond the initial price of the game

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

My point is, if they go Free2Play (which means pay2win and cheaters) or subscription-fee (rip-off), then I quite simply will not purchase the sequel, no matter how good it is.

And as I noted..

A lot of people will say this now hoping flight sim makers will belive what they say

But as we both know, and agree, that the flight sim makers need to generate revenue beyond the initial price of the game to stay in business

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

If that means no more WWII simming for a long time? Oh well, I'll have to live with that disappointment, I guess.

But I'm not going to support the F2P or monthly-fee system, no matter how badly I would like to fly a Yak-1 with awesome physics/graphics/sound.

You would not be the 1st person to say that..

Only to cave later

I remember many a flight simmer saying the same thing your saying now 20 years ago, when most of us were playing off line flight sims like AOTP, AOE, SWOTL, CYAC and the like with regards to Air Warrior and Warbirds..

That is to say

If the flight sim is 'good' and your a 'serious' flight simmer, you will be surprised at how fast you can learn to like eating crow to join your buddies online!

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

You would not be the 1st person to say that..

Only to cave later

I remember many a flight simmer saying the same thing your saying now 20 years ago, when most of us were playing off line flight sims like AOTP, AOE, SWOTL, CYAC and the like with regards to Air Warrior and Warbirds..

That is to say

If the flight sim is 'good' and your a 'serious' flight simmer, you will be surprised at how fast you can learn to like eating crow to join your buddies online!

We'll see.

[AirHog71]

I agree with Doggles on monthly subscription, there is no way I'd get my moneys worth.

I do however don't mind paying for mods or planes that I'd be insterested in using / flying like RoF. If it means the devs continue to receive income to keep going then why not?

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by AirHog71

I agree with Doggles on monthly subscription, there is no way I'd get my moneys worth.

I do however don't mind paying for mods or planes that I'd be insterested in using / flying like RoF. If it means the devs continue to receive income to keep going then why not?

I'll tell you why not.

A "free to play" game means there's no barrier to registering a new account. That means if you get banned from the game for cheating, you just open a new account.

That means cheaters effectively cannot be banned since they can just register a new account and get right back in. IP bans don't work either if the person has a dynamic IP address (many residential ISPs do this).

So your only recourse is to hope the developers fix the bugs that allow cheats to happen.

Look at Maddox Games' track record: Do you think they will be releasing regular security updates? No.

A free2play game will be rife with cheating, with no way to stop it.

[AirHog71]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I'll tell you why not.

A "free to play" game means there's no barrier to registering a new account. That means if you get banned from the game for cheating, you just open a new account.

That means cheaters effectively cannot be banned since they can just register a new account and get right back in. IP bans don't work either if the person has a dynamic IP address (many residential ISPs do this).

So your only recourse is to hope the developers fix the bugs that allow cheats to happen.

Look at Maddox Games' track record: Do you think they will be releasing regular security updates? No.

A free2play game will be rife with cheating, with no way to stop it.

But that happens with a pay upfront games too. Look at Company of Heroes for example. The game can be picked up for $20, there's no subscription or no paid add-ons. People openly admit that if they get caught cheating, they simply buy a new licence.

It's naive to think people just buy 1 copy of game if their sole intention is to cheat.

Cheating is a fact of life for online gaming, there's nothing anyone can do about it. There are steps developers can take to kerb it but they'll never eliminate it no matter what model they follow.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by AirHog71

But that happens with a pay upfront games too. Look at Company of Heroes for example. The game can be picked up for $20, there's no subscription or no paid add-ons. People openly admit that if they get caught cheating, they simply buy a new licence.

It's naive to think people just buy 1 copy of game if their sole intention is to cheat.

Cheating is a fact of life for online gaming, there's nothing anyone can do about it. There are steps developers can take to kerb it but they'll never eliminate it no matter what model they follow.

At least that $20 is a mitigating factor and is tied to a CD-key of some sort. Cheaters are lazy; otherwise they would just take time to get good at the game rather than resort to cheats.

Nobody has unlimited cash/patience to keep buying game licenses.

Either way, go start your own "please give us pay2win" thread if you're so gung-ho about it.