fw 190a5 flight model

[Glider]

Personally I am waiting for Gaston to take up my challenge.

[Gaston]

Originally Posted by Glider

Personally I am waiting for Gaston to take up my challenge.

If you have read all the 600 P-47 combat accounts and still don't know the P-47 badly out-turns the Me-109G in all circumstances, then there isn't much point in providing any evidence is it?

I have for years presented all of you out there with the challenge to find one combat example of the Me-109G out-turning the P-47, in any circumstance, but especially at low speeds, and still nothing has come up...

If you don't see that P-47 turning fights outnumber the one dive and zoom example you provided (indeed correctly) by a ratio of about ten or twenty to one, I wonder what is the point in debating the issue further: There are 600 P-47 combat accounts here, and so far you have provided one dive and zoom example and I have provided one more: I have read them all and there isn't a large number of those compared to P-47 turnfighting...

P-47 turnfighting also outnumbers P-51 turnfighting, and especially P-51 turnfighting at medium-low speed turning when decided within less than five-ten 360°s. Within one unsustained 360° at high speeds, the P-51 does excel occasionally at very high Gs.

However I will break it down into the actual numbers and ratios for those 600 combat reports when I have the time.

Gaston

[Glider]

Didn't think you would take up the challange.

Just to avoid any confusion this is the challenge

I have a challange for you. Pick any combat, from any of the lists you like, be it a Spitfire, P47, P51 whatever, totally your choice. And we will analyse the ten combats either side of the one you picked and see how many of those involved involved a turning horizontal combat.

I repeat the choice of aircraft, list and combat is totally yours. I don't think I can be fairer than that.
Lets see if you are willing to use those combat reports to prove your point

This in relation to your 95% of all combats involved turning combats

I have already disproved your statement about the Slow turning Spitfire combat, you will remember your statement that nearly all high speed turns are stall turns. I also disproved your statement about P47's not fighting in the vertical, remember that you only found one example and it took me four minutes to find another.

So right now your batting average is less than good.
I am confident that I can disprove your statement about 95% of air combat being sustained turns thats what the challange is about.

Why don't you provide the examples. So you can start with the 10-20 examples of a P47 fighting in turning fights.

PS another fire and climb example http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-29april44.jpg
PPS another one http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-29april44.jpg
PPPS And another one http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...in-30jan44.jpg
PPPPS Guess what http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...e-8april44.jpg

edit Re the P47 turning compapred to the Me109. I have always believed that this differs with speed. At the slower speeds the 109 would have the advantage, at higher speeds the P47 (and P51) gain the advantage. This is down to the simple fact that the 109 control forces become very difficult at speed, a fact reported in a number of pilot statements and generally supported by the combat reports

[K_Freddie]

The P47 was great at altitude and speed, as much as it was good for ground attack, it excelled at high altitudes as well... according to one vet

If battles were high and if it had speed the P47 could win easily, but as soon as it slowed down, it was a sitting duck. In fact nearly all allied a/c were ducks at low speed, with exception maybe of the spit.
The axis planes seemed to be easier to handle at low to medium speeds.

[Glider]

I totally agree with you. Tempest pilots were continually told not to get into a slow turning fight with the 109.
As mentioned before the Tempest had a broadly similar turn performance as the P47/Typhoon/P51 and Fw 190 so it fits