Game Hurricane is 534 lbs overweight

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by JtD

Pilot is part of service load and included. It should still be noted that wartime tare figures and in game tare figure have little in common, what one has to look for is that fully loaded planes in game and real life have the same weight, and that usables like fuel and ammo correspond to historical figures. Empty weight historically, depending on air force and time, sometimes does not include guns, radio, armour and other things like survival gear, flares, gunsights, guncams, oxygen equipment etc., while in game it does.

but that logic should then similarly apply to the spitfire and 109, yet neither of those has the "overweight problem" that the hurricane indicates according to Buzzsaw's OP

[csThor]

All 109s were too heavy when I last checked. Haven't noticed that this has been corrected, yet, either.

[Kwiatek]

FM and performace still need a lot of correction in CLOD:

- wrong weight of planes - overweight

- wrong maximum speed - all fighters are too slow

- wrong climb rate - too slow climb rate at medium to high alts

- wrong maximum service celling - way to low service celling

I know ( beacuse i was FM modder in old Il2) that such things was possible to make in il2 1946 i wonder what stops 1C to make it correct and more acccurate in CLOD???

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by csThor

All 109s were too heavy when I last checked. Haven't noticed that this has been corrected, yet, either.

but by only about less then a 1/10th the amount we are now discussing for the hurricane, so not really relevant

if buzzsaw is correct, and by all indications so far he is, then this is a massive problem for the hurricane which needs to be resolved quickly

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by zapatista

but by only about 1/10th the amount

if buzzsaw is correct, and by all indications so far he is, then this is a massive problem for the hurricane which needs to be resolved quickly

It doesn't matter so much because how the FM is set up. The basic performance data seems to be set in stone (speed, climb, turn), and the engine just works out the results for different speeds/angles of attack/altitudes. More weight just not effects the raw performance so much as in real life, though it may well effect the handling/behaviour.

For example, since power and max speed are set, the engine may work out the acceleration from this, for which it also takes account weight. In the end, acceleration for example may be less due to increased weight, even though the plane reaches the same speed and turns just as well. OTOH it may well dive better than it should due to increased cross sectional densitity.

In short the effects are secondary, not primary.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by zapatista

but that logic should then similarly apply to the spitfire and 109, yet neither of those has the "overweight problem" that the hurricane indicates according to Buzzsaw's OP

That logic indeed applies to Spitfire and 109 as well, and so it does to all other planes. If they aren't overweight or less overweight, they are simply not done as wrongly.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

It doesn't matter so much because how the FM is set up. The basic performance data seems to be set in stone (speed, climb, turn), and the engine just works out the results for different speeds/angles of attack/altitudes. More weight just not effects the raw performance so much as in real life, though it may well effect the handling/behaviour.

That's not quite right. Of course it is possible to reach correct performance with totally wrong input numbers in game, but once you have your parameters set, and then change weight, there'll be the associated loss in performance just like it would be in real life. But be this as it may, imo a simulation game should have both, input and output correct. Otherwise the term simulation is just an empty phrase. Proper weights are one of the foundations for this.

Like I've said before, the FM of the Hurricane as listed in that other topic is essentially the same which was used in il-2 1946. Same fundamental flaws. It's a nasty surprise it was carried over 1:1.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by csThor

All 109s were too heavy when I last checked. Haven't noticed that this has been corrected, yet, either.

Salute

After further investigation, it seems to me your assertion is actually incorrect.

The game lists all the 109E's at a max. weight of 2580 kgs.

According to this document, the 109E1 is close:



But the 109E3 seems to be underweight.



Above puts the 109E3 at 2608 kgs, or 28 kgs/62 lbs over the game weight.

In addition, there is another question.

I don't read German well so am unsure if armour plating is included in the list of weights for the two above documents, it doesn't seem to be and many 109's did not have it when the Battle started. If it isn't included, then the 109's weight deficit is worse than I thought.

And here's a later Luftwaffe document which lists a '109E', (no type specified), with the weight at 2665 kgs.



That would be 85 kgs/187 lbs over the game listed weight, not an inconsiderable amount.

Thanks to Mike Williams WWII Aircraft site for these documents:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

[JtD]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

I don't read German well so am unsure if armour plating is included in the list of weights for the two above documents, it doesn't seem to be and many 109's did not have it when the Battle started. If it isn't included, then the 109's weight deficit is worse than I thought

It says below the table that this represents a fully equipped aircraft without armour plate.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by JtD

It says below the table that this represents a fully equipped aircraft without armour plate.

Salute

So the 109 weight deficit grows...

If according to the posted Luftwaffe chart, the max. weight of the 109E3 was 2608 kgs without armour, and since, according to Kurfurst, the armour was 46 kgs, then we should see a weight of 2654 kgs with armour, 74 kgs/162 lbs over the weight of the game aircraft.

The 109E3 is 74 kgs light.

The 109E4 is at least that, and likely more, since it had additional equipment.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Salute

So the 109 weight deficit grows...

If according to the posted Luftwaffe chart, the max. weight of the 109E3 was 2608 kgs without armour, and since, according to Kurfurst, the armour was 46 kgs, then we should see a weight of 2654 kgs with armour, 74 kgs/162 lbs over the weight of the game aircraft.

The 109E3 is 74 kgs light.

Yes, IF they have a functional armored bulkhead modelled. And it seems to me they do not...

The 109E4 is at least that, and likely more, since it had additional equipment.

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