So, about that little red light...

[Rama]

Old debate comming up again...

Originally Posted by zapatista

btw, this is a problem in il2 when using the normal and correct FoV setting for your monitor size, dont compare it with what you see on a zoomed view setting which artificially magnifies what you see.

Wrong. The "max Zoom" is a 30° FOV which actually correspond approximativelly to the FOV you have to your screen if your head is at a "normal distance" of it.
The problem in all computer game is that you can't have at the same time a vision of the object size corresponding to the cone of view in which you see your monitor AND an standard "human" 160° FOV.... for this you would need a hemispheric screen around you, and not a standard monitor...
So if you have to compare object spotting in IL2 and in reality.. you HAVE to do it at 30° FOV (maximum zoom).

BTW IL2 does quite a good job with the different FOV to allow you to have a peripheral vision and a "normal" vision in a reduced angle (30° FOV) with an almost instant switch between the 2.

you have the exact same problem in il2 when trying to spot tanks/trucks on a road or in a field, in real life you can still see them from 1500 meters, and in il2 you need to be at 300 or 400 meters. if you ever fly VFR in real aircraft just look at the scenery below you and compare at what altitudes you can still spot individual cars/trucks etc.. then compare it again to what you can see in il2. in il2 there is a MAJOR problem with object visibility, its down to about 30% to what it should be.

I do often fly VFR between 500ft AGL and 3000ft AGL and find that IL2 does quite a good job for ground object spotting at these altitudes (again with the 30° FOV).... In real when the landscape is highly contrasted, it's even more difficult to spot such objets sometimes.
At 4500 ft AGL in real (corresponding to your 1500m), It isn't hard to spot a truck or even a car on a black asphalted road.... it is much harder (and some times impossible) to spot the same vehicles (or an agriculture engine for exemple) in the middle of a standard agriculture landscape (at least where I fly, with lanscape of small rolling hills, with a mosaic of small culture fields and woods/hedges, etc...)

Seems we don't have the same IRL experience.
I see that in this tread, others have the same IRL experience as I have.

[Flyby]

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2? How about SoW_BoB? Sorry I can't test this in IL2 at the moment. I'm using the wife's pc until I build a new rig. Maybe someone can make a track spotting (or not) a climbing flight of Hurricanes over the channel, and post it to Youtube? Typically, the perspective from the Emil would be "up-Sun" from the Hurricanes!
Flyby out

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by 99th_Flyby

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2?

nope, in il2 right now they are almost impossible to see, this is presuming your monitor is correctly calibrated for color and contrast, that you are using a native resolution on your lcd, and that you have your monitor set to the "correct" FoV setting. but you could however see them in real life in normal weather conditions.

numerous reports from ww2 pilots refer to distances they could spot aircraft at reliably, and il2 has a major problem with this because the 2e and 3e LoD models dont stand out enough against the terrain textures that form the background of the scenery below you.

Originally Posted by 99th_Flyby

How about SoW_BoB?

there is no indication right now that they will correct this in BoB, or that oleg and Co even recognize this is an issue. oleg did indicate more LoD models would be used than the 3 we have currently, so a more gradual progression of sizes and shapes should occur, but the important aspect is that they also need to make the distant LoD models stand out more.

right now you have pretty Lod models modeled with nice paint jobs being seen against pretty background terrain, but it all blends into one 2 dimensional flat visual soup that is very hard to make out any detail in. in real life a moving 3 dimensional object (the plane) would stand out much more when moving against a more distant stationary background terrain.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Rama

Old debate comming up again...

Wrong. The "max Zoom" is a 30° FOV which actually correspond approximativelly to the FOV you have to your screen if your head is at a "normal distance" of it........
So if you have to compare object spotting in IL2 and in reality.. you HAVE to do it at 30° FOV (maximum zoom).....

completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen.

you dont seem to understand how modern video display technology works, or how to use it correctly according to the manufacturers specifications (and complying to health and safety regulations to protect your eye sight).

to keep things simple for now, lets presume we are all using lcd pc monitors on our computer desks, since that is now the case for most gamers in developed countries. (projector displays, large plasma tv's, and CRT monitors have somewhat different characteristics and different rules apply, hence they are best viewed from different distances)

for modern pc lcd monitors, there is basically only one "correct viewing distance" ! that distance is determined by the font size of the OS/software, the size of the pixels the display uses, and the display resolution.

for reading text default font sizes are similar across OS's and are roughly 30% larger then what you see in print (for normal printed text in books and literature). because the monitor is further from your eyes, to your brain the viewing size of the text fonts remains similar. there can also be a slight difference in pixel sizes for different monitor which can slightly change this for normal desktop use, but at 0.05 mm difference per pixel for simplicity sake we'll skip that part for now to (roughly varying btw 0.25 and 0.30 mm).

for viewing video or grafix the best viewing distance is roughly similar to that, because if you sit to close the image pixilates and becomes blocky ( you can see the individual pixel blocks and the lines between them), and if you sit to far away you loose the detail of the image . the ball park correct viewing distance for lcd pc monitors is roughly 60 cm, with about a 10 cm variation depending on personal preference or accuracy of vision. the resolution the display is set to also matters, with high definition video using smaller pixel blocks so you can sit a little closer, and for lower resolution video users having to sit a little further away (so the displayed video "block" blend in together more). but for now we'll presume the lcd pc monitors we are using are set at their native resolution, and since pixel sizes in those lcd monitors are fairly constant, those with higher resolution monitors basically have larger monitors with more pixels on the larger display surface, but sit at similar distances.

so to keep a long story short, lcd pc monitors DO have a "correct viewing distance", and a small monitor will give you a smaller field of view in il2, and a larger (wider) monitor will give you a wider Field of View. therefore whatever lcd monitor size you have on your desk, there will only be ONE correct FoV setting in il2 that will show you in game objects (trucks, planes, buildings, etc..) at their correct sizes (it is easy to calculate that "correct FoV setting" for your monitor size with a simple formula). if you set a more narrow field of view in il2 on that same monitor you now get increased tunnel vision and those objects you look at will be artificially magnified, and if you set a wider field of view your peripheral vision might increase but the objects will now shrink in size (which means that to your visual cortex they will look further away). there are some incorrect sizes modeled for some in game objects in il2, like some of the buildings, but we'll skip that part for now to.

since il2 is promoting itself as a "simulation" and not an arcade game, you have to assume that what we see on our monitors in the game will be intended to SIMULATE what you'd see from a ww2 cockpit in real life, which means that 90% of the time most of us would fly with the "correct FoV" for our monitor size (so we can see all in-game objects correctly displayed in their right sizes and relative size ratios). since we have the limitation of sitting in our living rooms behind a computer monitor, there are some features added to the game to reduce those limitations, so you can briefly switch to a wider FoV to increase your situational awareness in a dogfight for ex, or you can briefly zoom into an object to get a more detailed view (aiming at a specific part of a slow moving bomber for ex), but you dont use either of those views to permanently fly in ! if you did that it would be very disorienting, either you have constant tunnel vision on a narrow 30 FoV, or on the 90 FoV setting your wider peripheral vission is being compressed into a display surface that is to small and everything therefore reduces in size and you are now looking at midgets in a lilyputter world and hunt for scale model toy aircraft in the virtual sky . neither of those views is one you'd want to fly in constantly for those exact reasons.

Originally Posted by Rama

BTW IL2 does quite a good job with the different FOV to allow you to have a peripheral vision and a "normal" vision in a reduced angle (30° FOV) with an almost instant switch between the 2.

you are holding the donkey by the wrong end. you'r basically saying you are mainly flying in the artificially magnified 30 FoV view most of the time in il2 and seem to think that is normal, sorry it aint.

lets do some basic figures, if for ex you are using a 24' lcd and are sitting at roughly 60 cm from it, then your normal "correct FoV" setting should be 46.9 in il2 (46.9 degrees of your visual field is now occupied by the 52 cm wide screen in front of you, placed at 60 cm). you'd therefore have to chose either the 45 or 50 FoV to see objects in their correct sizes in this sim, both of which are significantly larger then the 30 you are claiming is the right setting.

so if you claim now that you can only see objects correctly in il2 with a 30 FoV setting, compared to your real life experience, then either everything in il2 is modeled to small, or when using the right "correct FoV" setting (45 or 50) for your monitor size you'd have to agree that objects are harder to see from the same distance compared to real life ! you cant have it both ways, its one or the other.

Originally Posted by Rama

The problem in all computer game is that you can't have at the same time a vision of the object size corresponding to the cone of view in which you see your monitor AND an standard "human" 160° FOV.... for this you would need a hemispheric screen around you, and not a standard monitor...

you have some convoluted thought processes going on in your head, get your perspective right from the start of your logic string. first, set your FoV correct for the display size and display technology you are using, so you see objects in their correct sizes, after that you can use additional monitors on either side to increase your peripheral vision in the game (il2 allows the use of multiple monitors). instead of that you are trying to tell me that while using your single 52 cm wide monitor you can magically set it to an artificially zoomed view and see objects "correctly in size" while still maintaining the peripheral vision of a 45 or 50 FoV setting, thats impossible with the physical laws of the universe we now live in.

so this time set your monitor to the correct view setting (45 or 50 for a 24' for ex), then fly at 1500 meters altitude in il2 and observe how well you can see a tank in a field, trucks on a road, or an aircraft parked on a grass strip etc.. then compare this to looking down from a real aircraft at 1500 m at various similar objects in the real world, there is a MAJOR difference to what you can see in real life compared to the difficulties we have in il2 (for this i am presuming you have normal 20/20 vision).

and as another example why dont you try and use that 30 FoV you claim is "normal" and do some formation flying in il2, its impossible. try and keep 100 m separation to the lead aircraft on your 10 or 2 o'clock position for ex, with a 30 FoV setting your vision is jumping about so much its impossible to keep an eye on him. similarly if you mainly use the 30 FoV for combat flying and have to scan the skies around you, its impossible because the sky sections you see are so small and you are completely vulnerable.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by zapatista

completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen.

you dont seem to understand how modern video display technology works

I do understand it much better than YOU seems to do.... (and IRL I'm an expert in digital photogrammetry and numerical aerial photography cameras... so such things like FOV are part of my everyday job).

Let's take my 16/9 22" LCD monitor. Horizontal half-size is equal to: ((16*22)/sqrt(16^2+9^2))/2 = (352/18.36)/2 = 19.17/2 = 9.58"
Size to the screen for a FOV of 30° is so:
Dist = 9.58/tgt(30°/2) = 35.7" (or around 90 cm... which is approximatively the distance from my eyes to the monitor... )

This proove that if you sit at a normal distance to the screen (I can do the same math for any kind of monitor size and standard viewing distance to them), the FOV you have is 30°
So 30° FOV (maximum zoom) is the view you should use in order to have a correct geometrical point of view through your screen.

If you use a 90° FOV (standard "non-zoomed" view of IL2), then you should have your eyes at:
9.58/tgt(90°/2) = 9.58" = 24cm to your screen
THAT would badly hurt your vision...

I didn't read the rest of your lengtly post... simple geometry is enough to show how much you're wrong in your first sentences.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Rama

and IRL I'm an expert in digital photogrammetry and numerical aerial photography cameras... so such things like FOV are part of my everyday job

you have a high opinion in yourself but dont seem to be able to use basic logic,simple reasoning and common sense. you'r also confusing yourself with all the little numbers you are quoting and dont understand the context.

Originally Posted by Rama

Let's take my 16/9 22" LCD monitor. Horizontal half-size is equal to: ((16*22)/sqrt(16^2+9^2))/2 = (352/18.36)/2 = 19.17/2 = 9.58"
Size to the screen for a FOV of 30° is so:
Dist = 9.58/tgt(30°/2) = 35.7" (or around 90 cm... which is approximatively the distance from my eyes to the monitor... )

all you have just done is calculate what distance you need to sit from your 22' monitor so it is equivalent to a 30 FoV, nothing more. that doesnt mean 30 FoV is "normal" to use in il2.

Originally Posted by Rama

This proove that if you sit at a normal distance to the screen (I can do the same math for any kind of monitor size and standard viewing distance to them), the FOV you have is 30°

no that doesnt prove anything, and isnt relevant to anybody else using il2, all it does is tell us how far rama sits from his monitor.

and i dont believe you in that regard either, it is not normal for the average pc user to sit about 1 meter from a 22' monitor while gaming or using a flightsim, and you couldnt either read normal text in windows like that, and you are sitting to far from the screen to see normal detail in video and gfx images during other pc use.

what i suspect you are doing by claiming to set the 30 FoV and use il2 in that manner is "cheating", because you might be setting that 30 FoV and then additionally sit much closer then 1 meter to the screen so there is an additional magnification factor in the objects you look at in-game (the linear size of the objects will now look larger to you). but you cant fly like that and still claim to use the sim correctly, so your argument is mute.

a ballpark normal viewing distance from an lcd monitor with 0.25/0.30 mm pixels is about 50 or 60 cm (as was explained in detail in an earlier post here).
- only users with extremely large lcd monitors will sit a bit further away, for ex with a 32 or 37' westinghouse pc monitor might the user sit about 1 meter away (note those still use 1920 x 1200 resolution, so the pixels will be extremely large at about 0.50 mm and if you sit to close it looks very blocky
- even those that use a 30' lcd pc monitor will usually sit at similar distance, because the pixels on it are similar to a 20' monitor, and text size will therefore be the same (the 30' user just gets a much bigger desktop)

Originally Posted by Rama

So 30° FOV (maximum zoom) is the view you should use in order to have a correct geometrical point of view through your screen.

i dont think you will find a single other il2 user with a 22' monitor that sits about 1 meter from his screen, so by your own logic all those other users will see things incorrectly and objects will be shrunk, since they will be using a wider FoV and sit closer to their monitors.

Originally Posted by Rama

I didn't read the rest of your lengtly post... simple geometry is enough to show how much you're wrong in your first sentences.

sure, i believe you

and of course, you are trying to have a meaningful discussion while pretending not to read what others say, but still claim only you is right eh

[Rama]

Originally Posted by zapatista

you have a high opinion in yourself

Tellin what you I in real life is "having a high opinion of myself"....
You like to fill your post with various insinuations, accusations and other irrelevant comments.
I stand on a clean conversation... please do the same...(or you will have the pleasure to have me not responding.... but maybe that's what you're searching....)

to be able to use basic logic

There's nothing more logic than mathematic (geometry).

Instead of calculating the FOV for YOUR screen size and your eyes distance to the screen, you prefer to talk about dozen of stuff except of what's relevant...
In any case I proved that what your first answer "completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen" IS completely wrong with a geometrical calculation.

all you have just done is calculate what distance you need to sit from your 22' monitor so it is equivalent to a 30 FoV

Exactly.... and do the calculation yourself for your monitor size, and you will be surprised to see how close the result will be from the real distance fromt the eyes to the screen.

and i dont believe you in that regard either, it is not normal for the average pc user to sit about 1 meter from a 22' monitor while gaming or using a flightsim, and you couldnt either read normal text in windows like that, and you are sitting to far from the screen to see normal detail in video and gfx images during other pc use

So you're calling me a liar.... I just measured it with a ruban meter... and the distance is 85cm (pretty close to 90, isn't it ? ).... and I have no problems at all with reading normal text in windows nor to see normal details during other PC use.
Maybe YOU should try to measure your eyes distance to the screen.... you'll probably be surprised....

normal viewing distance from an lcd monitor .../... is about 50 or 60 cm

Supposing it's true (which I don't believe... 50 cm to a 22" is quite close and not very healthy for the eyes...), then according FOV would be 43° for 60 cm and 51° for 50 cm, both of them (45° and 50° in game) beiing zoomed FOV in IL2, "standard view" being 60° FOV.

Of course some may use these if they want... something the software can't guess for them (there's absolutly no way for the game software to know at which distance you like to sit from the screen....
What I know is that at a distance to the screen corresponding to a 30° FOV, I've no problem to spot planes/tanks/trucks on the field.... something which is much harder to do IRL than in the game.

try it for yourself, sit at a normal distance (say 60 or 50 cm) from your 22' lcd, set the il2 in-game FoV to the correct setting for you, then fly at 1500 meters over a map that has some single tanks or trucks place in a field, a small collum of trucks on a road, or a single aircraft placed on a grassy strip. you will NOT be able to spot them or track them.

Allready did... no problems for me. Even at higher altitudes than 1500m (in game).

then the next time you are in a real aircraft at about 1500 meters, look down if you can see a tractor in a field, cars/small-trucks on the road, or individual aircraft placed at an airfield

I allready answered this... and I invite you for a fligh on the area I usually fly over (on a sunny day). You will be the passenger, and so will have plenty of time to spot with your perfect vision whatever that may proove I'm wrong.... I'm living South-East France, in Toulouse... I even would be happy to accomodate you freely at my home during a few days (but you'll have to pay for your travel ticket from your living place to mine and back....)

a simple solution for il2 would be to paint/color/shape the 2e and 3e LoD models so they stand out more when viewed against a background terrain

So painting the target... in red for them to be more visible....Mmmmm.... so nice and so immersive...
why not adding some icons and labels if you want to follow this way .

[JG52Uther]

Actually the thread is about the fuel light in the cockpit.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

Actually the thread is about the fuel light in the cockpit.

i'd say the OP disagrees with you

Originally Posted by 99th_Flyby

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2? How about SoW_BoB? Sorry I can't test this in IL2 at the moment. I'm using the wife's pc until I build a new rig. Maybe someone can make a track spotting (or not) a climbing flight of Hurricanes over the channel, and post it to Youtube? Typically, the perspective from the Emil would be "up-Sun" from the Hurricanes!
Flyby out

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Rama

Instead of calculating the FOV for YOUR screen size and your eyes distance to the screen, you prefer to talk about dozen of stuff except of what's relevant...

nope, i know exactly what my screen size and correct FoV is for my setup

the problem i have with what you are saying is that you are pretending there is a "special rama way" to use an lcd monitor, and there isnt. i have given you the detailed reason why monitors with various display technology have a correct viewing distance to use them, and you are pretending it doesnt apply to you.

Originally Posted by Rama

So you're calling me a liar.... I just measured it with a ruban meter... and the distance is 85cm (pretty close to 90, isn't it ? ).... and I have no problems at all with reading normal text in windows nor to see normal details during other PC use.

nope i dont believe anybody with a 22' lcd will sit at about 1 meter from it for normal day to day office use, and can still see text with normal font size settings and not produce eye strain, or that you will sit at that distance for gaming. if you do, then you are the odd one out, just dont try and tell me it is normal, cause it aint.

btw, there is now creep in your measurements, if you now tell me you are sitting at 85 cm then objects will have enlarged 5% or more from the 90+ cm you quoted before (because your foV is still 30 and you are sitting 5% closer to the screen).

what i think you are doing this just for the sake of arguing here and pretending visibility in il2 is correct, but in fact you have set your monitor at 30 FoV but then sit at 1/2 the "correct" 90 cm viewing distance for it, so objects magnify another 50% on top of their already increased size displayed at 30 FoV. with that you have then created a 4x magnification and are now trying to tell me you can see things in il2 like you do in real life.

Originally Posted by Rama

Supposing it's true (which I don't believe... 50 cm to a 22" is quite close and not very healthy for the eyes...), then according FOV would be 43° for 60 cm and 51° for 50 cm, both of them (45° and 50° in game) beiing zoomed FOV in IL2, "standard view" being 60° FOV.

not quite, the "normal" default view in il2 is 70 i believe, but the only thing that matters is that this normal view is only "normal" if you have a 30' lcd and sit at the correct viewing distance for that type of lcd display technology.

just try it for your monitor, sit at the correct 50 or 60 cm from it, set your FoV accordingly, and compare it to the visibility you would have in real life for objects seen at 1500 meters distance, the problem in il2 is very obvious.

you seem to think i made up the issue of "correct viewing distances" for various resolutions, screen sizes, and display technology. there is 100's of articles written on that topic, and the ballpark figures are very straightforward to understand for lcd's. for you to pretend it is normal to sit at about 1 meter from a 22' lcd pc monitor is..., well, odd.

Originally Posted by Rama

Of course some may use these if they want... something the software can't guess for them (there's absolutly no way for the game software to know at which distance you like to sit from the screen....

the game could know it if during original installation it asks you what size monitor you have and what resolution you use, some games already do that (but they ask it together with checking cpu power and ram, so they set the level of detail in game your pc can cope with). for il2/BoB it could then set the "correct" FoV as default, and you have 2 snap views for increased peripheral vision or zoom effects. after that users can still edit the options like they do for other settings to adjust it further to their personal liking.

Originally Posted by Rama

So painting the target... in red for them to be more visible....Mmmmm.... so nice and so immersive...

who said anything about painting objects in red ? all that is need is to make them either darker, lighter, or a bit more reflective for ex, i am sure some grafix artist could come up with some simple suggestions.