diving extension/pitch-back

[RegRag1977]

Originally Posted by FC99

C'mon, he is starting the story with this:

C'mon, he is starting the story with this:

Quote:
The following episode, found in Thunderbolt! by the World War II
USAAF ace Robert S. Johnson, is one of the best examples available of the
use of energy tactics (diving extension/pitch-back) to defeat a double superior opponent.

Exactly, but please read until the end: how to "use energy tactics (diving extension/pitch back) to DEFEAT a double superior opponenent". Key words are "defeat" and "double superior" opponent. Note he did not say how to defeat a noob pilot, which anyway would be completely pointless. Note also that the purpose of Shaw book is not about collecting impression: it is rather a scientific corpus of methods and techniques.

Originally Posted by FC99

P47 is just marginally faster, not enough to have any decisive zoom advantage. Dive advantage is more pronounced but dives are not increasing your E,in most of the cases.

Correct when it comes to level flight, but not in a dive : fact presented here is that the Spitfire cannot match the P47 initial dive acceleration let alone top diving speed.
Remember here what Johnson states in the quote:

"But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom".

So apparently it was a known technique to use dive to gain energy advantage with the P47, as Shaw also say :

"Johnson, undoubtedly one of the greatest natural fighter pilots of all time, used his roll performance defensively to allow himself the chance to build an energy advantage in a diving extension".

It seems to me that Shaw understands that it is common to increase energy in a diving extension, at least to the point of having 'energy advantage". But, of course, that is only my interpretation, and you're entitled to yours.

You'll also notice how he states: "German fighter" and not the noob friendly and cooperating fighter. He is talking about actual combat experience, and this shows that the Spitfire pilot may not be as poor skilled as you may want us to believe. Johnson talk with actual combat experience, he would certainly not lose his time telling such a minor feat as beating a noob Spitfire pilot in a mock fight, when he has so many other victories to talk about. He tells us a story with actual combat in mind. Otherwise ask yourself why Shaw would have discuss this -according to you- poor example in his book? Come on...

Originally Posted by FC99

Spitfire pilot who burned all of his E in hard turns, allowed marginally faster opponent to build enough separation and speed to zoom above him. Sounds like the novice pilot to me . Whole this fight is actually an example how to lose less E than your opponent.There is a myriad of things Spit pilot could and should do to prevent the described outcome of the fight. As it seems that you have Shaw's book you can find some counter measures to E fight in the same chapter. With an ace Spit pilot that would never happen.

Well, please, let's see what happens in the described engagement, phase by phase:

First the Spit dives trying to follow the Thunderbolt diving, then only after being outmaneuvered trying to match the P47 in the zoom (this is the important part of the episode BTW) comes its first (and last) hard turn described as "skidding around hard and coming in on my tail". After that the Spitfire pilots is unable to follow rolls as Johnson "just refused to turn".Then the P47 enters the last dive of the mock combat followed by the fatal zoom climb.

Question to you: where are all the hard-ernergy-killer turns you are talking about? The Spitfire only turns hard once, so definitely not many hard turns here: anyway, if this only hard turn is enough to kill the Spitfire energy potential vs a P47, then there must be quite a performance problem in the game vs reality IMHO. But that's just a question.

As for counter measures, ha! there always a tactic against another tactic!

Originally Posted by FC99

I never fought Spits with P-47 in game but I fought many Spits with FW and what happened in the Johnson's story is absolutely possible to do in game if Spit pilot is not very good. And for all we know Spit pilot from the story could be an ATA ferry pilot pitted against one of the best American pilots.

Fw190 is quite different from P47 in game and in reality, as you well know.
I also know well that one can shoot down an unexperience or a surprised pilot online, but still i would like to see a track of it (following more or less what Johnson describes in the account and especially the crucial part:

"He couldn't make it; the big Jug had a definite speed advantage. I grinned
happily; I'd heard so much about this airplane that I really wanted to show off
the Thunderbolt to her pilot. The Jug kept pulling away from the Spitfire;
suddenly I hauled back on the stick and lifted the nose. The Thunderbolt
zoomed upward, soaring into the cloud-flecked sky. I looked out and back;
the Spit was straining to match me, and barely able to hold his position.
But my advantage was only the zoom—once in steady climb, he had me. "

AND ESPECIALLY

"I gaped as smoke poured from the exhausts and the Spitfire shot past me as if
I were standing still. ").

And as for the ferry pilot, unlike you i don't know for sure, but i really doubt so -for reasons already mentionned in my above remarks. The maneuvers he performed that day were the same he used in actual combat against the Luftwaffe.